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1H guns vs 2H guns

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darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

1H guns vs 2H guns

i'e seen/heard waay too many arguements about this

lets do some math here.

from the battle reports i've seen, a legendary scorpio does about 120 a shot, lets roudn that down to 100 for easier computations.

each legendary skorpio gets 4 attacks, that is 8 attacks minimum.

at 8 attacks, assuming you dont crit, is 800.

now, a legendary sniper rifle does 150 base.

you get 3 hits without the aid of equips/tattoos.

that is 450 without crits.

however, being a sniper rifle, you crit 85% of the time, so the chances of you critting all 3 hits are 61.5%.

this being said, 2/3 attacks are critting.

since 2h guns do 2x damage on crits, with average of 2 attacks critting, you get 600+150, which ends up as 750, which is still lower than a 1H gun.

now you say a legendary sniper rifle can get 6 hits, 2 from a g+5 of speed, and 1 from tattoo.
any armor that gives EACH weapon a stat boost will always benefit the 1H weapons.

sniper rifle gets 1 extra attack? the 1H guns get 2 extra attacks.

now we move on to the arguement from many of how a low perception 1H gun can hit a high perception 2H gun.

now, lets say a 1H gunman gets to 120 perception, with equipments. the 2h gunman gets to 200 perception with equipments.

the tattoo provides +90 chance to hit, and since every 3 chance to hit=1 perception, that is a additional 30 perception boost when attacking.
120+30=150.
now the legendary guns give a + .35% chance to hit to said gun, (150*.35)+150=202.5.

this means a 120 perception 1H gunman can easily hit a 200 perception 2H gunman, and since at higher levels a few points of perception dont mean much, the 1h gunman will hit even higher perceptions.

so how to balance this out without breaking either 1h or 2h guns?

my suggestion is to lower the chance to hit from 35% to 20% on the 1H guns.

this wouldn't affect melee since with their low perception, they'd get hit every time anyways.

now a how this would work, same people.

120 perception 1H gunman, with +90 chance to hit, so thats 150 perception. with 20% chance to hit, that would bring it to 180 perception.

this would still allow the 1H gun to be used on expos, yet not completely trounce the 2H gun in a fight.

and if you take note of the damage done per round in the trophy hall, you can see that both guns so lowest amounts of damage.
even in this case however, the 2H gun is losing out by 1000 damage.

since both guns are losing this badly, maybe making 2H gun crits 2.25/2.5 and 1H guns do crit 1.75

this would bring the guns on par with melee weapons.

also, the example in this are simplified so its easier to understand, but the more hits you have, the less likely you are to have all of them crit.

i am not asking for a nerf or a ban, just explaining the math behind the arguements.

post opinions please, and please, try not to flame.

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Necro-> DarkSnow

This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by darksnow: 01-20-2010 03:45.

01-20-2010 03:24

smierc
Double Ace

Registration Date: 10-24-2009
Posts: 130
Location: Ely
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: Source

RE: 1H guns vs 2H guns

quote:

Originally posted by darksnow
this would bring the guns on par with melee weapons.

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=974bed046c
i think you'll find guns are on par, and the issue you're having is that you expect everything to be designed for the same action.
a 2H gunner get a nice leg sniper, high def mob, you rip through it, you have tostop comparing the weapons like they are to be used in identical situations, anyway, your damage figures are off, so is your generalisation, you wont see much of a 2H gun advantage until you start hitting people with alot more toughness.
unless we're talking expo's, then 2H guns allow you to hit huge mobs with a nice bit of damage.

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quote:

Originally posted by Evangelion
It was inevitable since GT joined the discussion Big Grin

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by smierc: 01-20-2010 07:49.

01-20-2010 07:48

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

you also didnt mention the sniper tat with the +75 to hit =25 per

and i find that since alot of snipers do try for the extra shots they cant upgrade there guns too high i personally do nice damage without the extra shot at about 360-400 a crit and i find alot of the time i do get 3 crits per round so thats about 1080-1120 dam per round which matchs most leg 1h gunners for damage.

even against melee i do ok sometimes
http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=439681f660

but it all depends on your setup same person diffrent result

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=e4db78e5e2

most melee have high hp

most 1h gunners have a good def and hp

but if a sniper wants that extra shot they have to sacrifce something and thats usally def which opens them up to greater damage. but how many weapons in the game give you ignore def and a high crit chance not many.

heres a fellow sniper and me again me on def for an extra 2 shots he gave up def and agilty which gaveme first shot every round plus gave me even greater damage so my 3 shots v his 5 shots

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=ad17898f6a

i think snipers need to feel out where the need to go with the legendary weapons but it doesnt need changing. we get an extra shot and 20% damage increase thats good enough.

i used to think it was unbalenced but after getting a leg sniper rifle i relized it wasnt. its just the setup you choose.

but if you want to be a gunman with sniper tat get a solar set with speed and get a legendary ak-47 that would give you everything extra attacks loads of firepower and high perc

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by darc: 01-20-2010 09:15.

01-20-2010 08:41

diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.

Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

All your numbers are wrong. Starting with 3 attacks for a 2h gun, going through damage and ending with chance to hit.
This is a mishmash of all tattoos and some imaginary weapons that in the given circumstances to assumed things.

EDIT: Darc - most 1h gunners have a good def and hp ??? Defence? lol, where?

EDIT2: the details...

from the battle reports i've seen, a legendary scorpio does about 120 a shot, lets roudn that down to 100 for easier computations.
There is the first problem, you assume.

now, a legendary sniper rifle does 150 base.
really? A g+4 sniper rifle does 88-91 base damage

you get 3 hits without the aid of equips/tattoos.
You wish Smile

however, being a sniper rifle, you crit 85% of the time
depends on equipment

since 2h guns do 2x damage on crits, with average of 2 attacks critting, you get 600+150, which ends up as 750, which is still lower than a 1H gun.
Depends on toughness. 2h guns do the damage all the time, 1h are crippled by toughness

now you say a legendary sniper rifle can get 6 hits, 2 from a g+5 of speed, and 1 from tattoo.
2+2+1=5 and 5=/=6

any armor that gives EACH weapon a stat boost will always benefit the 1H weapons.
Not true.

sniper rifle gets 1 extra attack? the 1H guns get 2 extra attacks.
Just an assumption, assassins and collectors/gangsters don't get any extra attacks.

now, lets say a 1H gunman gets to 120 perception, with equipments. the 2h gunman gets to 200 perception with equipments.
You made the 200 perception sound way too easy.

the tattoo provides +90 chance to hit, and since every 3 chance to hit=1 perception, that is a additional 30 perception boost when attacking.
ehm, this is a collector ONLY feature

this means a 120 perception 1H gunman can easily hit a 200 perception 2H gunman,
So wrong...

so how to balance this out without breaking either 1h or 2h guns?
With equipment!

my suggestion is to lower the chance to hit from 35% to 20% on the 1H guns.
Let me guess, another frustrated sniper who can't get the best out of his tattoo?

and if you take note of the damage done per round in the trophy hall, you can see that both guns so lowest amounts of damage.
Apart from the fact that 2h guns deal solid damage regardless of who/what the opponent is.

maybe making 2H gun crits 2.25/2.5 and 1H guns do crit 1.75
I agree with the 2h part, but 1h guns are fine as they are. Oh, wait, YES! Get me better crits! Absorbers would become even more overpowered...

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01-20-2010 08:45

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

the ones that attack me do and the link that smierc posted shows that lol but in fairness he is a higher lvl. and i was comparing that to the snipers that try for extra attacks which alot of them do.

but at least am on your side for once lol

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darc: 01-20-2010 09:10.

01-20-2010 08:53

Scyanide
Triple Ace

Registration Date: 08-29-2008
Posts: 176
Location: Sydney
Clan: .DB.

I was always saying that 1h are overpowered Tongue

with your + % to hit ... you are saying sniper tattoo has +75 to hit = 25 perception,
1h guns have 30% - that is difference ... when having 150perc its adding you 45 !! and its only from weapon ... collector tattoo is receiving next 30 perception ( +90 to hit )

diablo ... you know that to stop you in ambushes we will need around 250-300 toughness what is impossible to made ... so in ambush you are still unbeatable ...

and you have 16shots in comparison with my or any other sniper 6 shots ...

your weapon is overpowered ... you admitted this once in private msg ... i even remember when you or either nndungu were smashing me when I was having 214 perception ...

that was sniper advantage ... we were always hiding over perception ... that was our advantage .... since you have this bonus to hit you can easily smash us ... what you need is rep combined with 120 perception and you are killing everyone ...

However i understand that you are going to defend your weapon and your path ... i am not blaming you thats why I am not going to say any more in this thread ... there is no point as no matter what we will say you will always add something, then you will close the thread as you always do ... there is no point to waste words ...
you are always right and everyone around is wrong when we are saying something against 1h guns ... and its easy to understand - you managed to get everything from your path what was possible ...

Congratulations mate !

01-20-2010 10:11

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

i did say it before and you wanted extra damage when i said give legendary 2h guns weapons a + to hit bonues and you said we wouldnt need it you wanted higher crit damage.

but if you want to match his weapon you need the + to hit not the damage no point in having it if you cant even hit him.

edit
and i did remind you about how i asked whats happing with the idea i got nothing back from you or anyone else i even pm you in game. so you cant complain now

edit2 maths wrong

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=443ad04e52

ok heres a report of qweeg ambushing me he has 109 perc with his gun to hit +35% he has a total of 148 perc i have 114 perc +75 to hit which gives me 139 perc and i think its quite even.

there isnt that big a diffrence he only won by the extra 2k hp he had at the start of the fight if his hp was lower then it would be diffrent story. and if i ambushed him i would mabey win. plus he has 2 luck with the tat might not be much but it might make a diffrence lol

edit3
yup i'll go with that +hit and 2.5 crit
sorry if edit2 seems irrelvant just thought i would show 1h v 2h gun fight since it was almost on even par.

This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by darc: 01-20-2010 11:24.

01-20-2010 10:21

diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.

Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

diablo ... you know that to stop you in ambushes we will need around 250-300 toughness what is impossible to made ... so in ambush you are still unbeatable ...
Awww, I didn't want to say this in public, but I'm not Frown

Maida and Black Rose managed to get enough HP to stop me, Cesarz and tiger_claw can kill me and if I wouldn't have searing blood you'd tear me apart as well. We've seen it - one time itt was a matter of who will shoot next and I had a bit more agility.

and you have 16shots in comparison with my or any other sniper 6 shots ...
Expos only.

your weapon is overpowered ... you admitted this once in private msg ... i even remember when you or either nndungu were smashing me when I was having 214 perception ...
That was because of searing blood an your quite low HP in defence, plus I had 30% chance to get through

that was sniper advantage ... we were always hiding over perception ... that was our advantage .... since you have this bonus to hit you can easily smash us ... what you need is rep combined with 120 perception and you are killing everyone ...
There is no way I could deny this. On the other hand without the +to hit 1h guns were the most difficult path imo.

...you are always right and everyone around is wrong when we are saying something against 1h guns ...
That was mean! Smile

Yes, I'm saying 1h guns are ok, but at the same time I agree that 2h guns need a little tweak. The increase of the critical multiplier seems (at least to me) like the best idea. The current x2 would be better as x2,5
When we compare melee and guns it is clear that it is not 1h guns that are overpowered, it is 2h guns that are a bit underpowered. Damage wise.
I think that the main idea was that a sniper rifle (the best damage dealing 2h gun) ignores everything when it comes to damage. Hence the reason why on Polish servers the Anubis expos had mostly snipers.
Snipers with a sniper rifle and your equipment deal constant damage that is not in any way modified by any attribute of your opponent. That is (imo) the best advantage of a sniper and should be used to its full potential. Oh,apologies, I know that you're fully aware of that.
Summary: I think 2h guns needs improving. My personal suggestion is critical multiplier x2,5 and perhaps even +10% to hit.

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01-20-2010 10:31

darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

Thread Starter Thread Started by darksnow

which is why i'm say, wouldn't lowering it down slightly to 20%, then increase the crit modifier for both guns?
since 1h and 2h guns are doing sub-par damage, and since everyone keeps saying how 1h guns are overpowered, 2h guns are underpowered, etc

also, the base stats for a legendary sniper rifle gives you the crit chance.
if i factor in equipments, this would make it seem even more underpowered.

@Darc, the problem is that 1h gunners with a lower perception can rip through a 2h sniper with almost twice his perception.

with you vs creeg

with the rifle you did

2389 damage, queeg did
3827 damage.

anyone could tell that even if you had same health, he would have won

i dont think to +hit to rifle is necessary, just increase crit modifyer up to 2.5, and give 1h guns 1.75 for crits modifier, but lower their chance to hit from 35 to 20.

@diablo, actually, if you checked the math, it is theoretically correct, after that its just the RNG. sure, i make it sound easy to get 200 perception, but if its so hard to get 200, why exactly is a 120 perception able to smash through?

ok, the +90 is collector only, then a non-collector still only needs 150 perception.

and diablo, if i'm assuming the 1h guns do less damage, and they're still beating out the 2h guns, you know that 2h guns need some tweaking.

and i assume the best of scenarios for the 2h gunner, and hes still losing.

because crit chance is capped at 85%, tgeres a 61% chance for 3 hits critting,52% for 4 hits critting, 45% for 5 hits critting, and 37% for 6 hits all critting.

and this is assuming you've managed to overcome the huge -crit for speed suffix

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Necro-> DarkSnow

This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by darksnow: 01-20-2010 11:18.

01-20-2010 11:01

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

we been thur that already 1h guns arnt going to be lowered. and you asking for a 15% decrease. no giving a 10% increase to hit on and the 2.5 crit mod on 2h guns is fine.

but when you get a legendary 2 handed gun for yourself you will see the diffrence.

01-20-2010 11:21

dooz
Viking

Registration Date: 08-21-2007
Posts: 739
Location: Denmark
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

I really don't see the need to improve 2-h guns, legendary sniper rifles are the only weapon that can hurt any expo-monster. Sniper rifles might do lower damage than 1-h guns against many expo monsters, but they do good damage against on all expos.

I use 1-h guns, as a collector and damage-wise i am on par with snipers with snipers with legendary sniper rifles 10-20 levels below me. This is completely fine as i have other nice tricks that i can do that snipers cannot.

/Edit
For some reason sniper seems to be a really, really popular tattoo on polish servers.....

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01-20-2010 11:29

darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

Thread Starter Thread Started by darksnow

so you are agreeing that a 120 perception 1h gun should be able to hit a 200 perception 2h gun?

if so, why would people want to load up on perception anyways, if its pointless when someone who has 80 perception lower than you can hit you just as easily as someone with 200 perception.

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Underworld -> Yuki
Necro-> DarkSnow

01-20-2010 12:11

dooz
Viking

Registration Date: 08-21-2007
Posts: 739
Location: Denmark
Race in game: Cultist
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Well, why not. Thats the advantage of being a collector, the price i pay is lower damage(in expos) and lower bonus exp from tattoo.

/Edit
being able to hit perception 200 with perception 120 is unique for collectors. a gunman would need 148 perception.

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01-20-2010 12:21

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

he was talking about damage not to hit something wether it be expo or player

but mabey we should leave tats out of this and base this on the wepons them selfs
tats will only complacte it further.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darc: 01-20-2010 12:32.

01-20-2010 12:22

diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.

Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Tattoos and weapons are a bit more complex than just damage. There are attacks, expos, sieges and even quests.
Show me the best ambush equip a sniper has on this server and then we can discuss the attack power of snipers.
For example I have to use twisted set to survive ambushes, no matter how much damage I can deal.

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01-20-2010 12:38

HamsterGod
Double Ace

Registration Date: 12-30-2008
Posts: 117
Location: Slovakia
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HLL

My two cents:
Generally a good sniper needs to be able to switch equips when necessary and also not to rely on solar set only.
F.e. I know there is a couple who use hawks set (or maybe at least one).
Also,all snipers have to differenciate between expo and ambush equip.
You might complain on the one-handed gunners ability to kill a sniper who has much more perception
but without this they would never be able to hit the higher expo mobs. Personally I stand more on the side of the arguments
saying that they aren't overpowered but maybe two-handed guns are underpowered.

As per diablos suggestion posted earlier, I don't agree with the necessity for a +hit bonus but rather the 2,5 criticals, which would make
it more even. The +hit is definately not necessary as our weapons give us perception (mostly), maybe the AK's, Fn-Fal's need some tweaking
but on the other hand I never really used them so I may be wrong.

And as a sniper its more about persuing other possibilities in ambushes,
So one-handed gunners hit you?
Either get a higher perception equip for defense (f.e. hunters in defense instead of speed , most attacks which pass crush snipers anyway so why not
limit their possibilities of passing, or then persue the defensive possibilities of building s an equip, might be an additional cost but it is usually worth doing.)

And for attacking others?
I went this way

Anti-Gunner
http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=bbbaf2ce9d
In this case I dont use my tatoo but I find it more exciting.

Anti-Melee
http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=83550d6892

Regarding the whole thread, each weapon in my mind works the way it works for a reason, as I mentioned one-handed guns would be really bad on expos without
the +% hit.
Also a lot is done within equips themselves and that is everybodys personal way of doing it , and their own luck with putting together the
right things.
There is so many threads on the topic why is that weapon better than that one and people with that weapon own me, maybe instead of always complaing it
could be better to explore possibilities of different sets, armours, shorts,....

I believe they are equal just you compare them at the wrong point instead of seeing what they are designed for.

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01-20-2010 14:16

Foxy
Viking

Registration Date: 05-02-2009
Posts: 582
Location: Wales
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BOS + S.S.

I'll just say a bit

Look at Berzetta in BOS's ecpo's on Anubis, she hits hard through his HIGH def and after Breath of death was hitting 500+ crits

1h guns are not overpowered, i have trouble with 2h melee, high hp/toughness defences, rangers and players like darc as his dmg is too much.

O and most that 'Maths' lol, is rubbish.

Think scorpio base 100, opponent has 70 toughness = -35 dmg so only 65.

2h gunner = lets use your 'Maths' 150 base, = hit 150

Now so Gunman = 2 atts from tats + leg scorpios + 4 each = 10 atts so 650 dmg around maybe around 750 with our few crits

2 gunner as darc shows hits 3 crits most of time so thats 300 x 3 = 900

And also 2h gunners don't need get dmg up as much so titanium or diamond sets help them more.

Not as simple as 1+1 this is it

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

01-20-2010 18:23

darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

Thread Starter Thread Started by darksnow

sorry, he gets 3 crits in 1 round.

the max crit cap is 85, you CANT go above that.
the chance of all 3 attacks critting is 61%, which rounded up to 66% would get you 2 crits out of 3 attacks.

even without the collector tattoo, 148 is much easier to get than 200.

i'm not trying to lower the damage on the 1H guns.
in fact, i'm proposing a little damage buff.
i just think that someone with 50 less perception should hit someone who spent time and money to get to 200

in most of my arguements, i'm making the 2H guns look BETTER.
if i'm trying to make them look BETTER and they're STILL losing out, they tweaking needs to be done

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Underworld -> Yuki
Necro-> DarkSnow

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darksnow: 01-20-2010 20:51.

01-20-2010 20:51

Artoir.
Avenger

Registration Date: 02-24-2008
Posts: 1,111
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: V13

Suppose it had been a few months since the last one of these

*sigh*

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01-20-2010 22:23

Foxy
Viking

Registration Date: 05-02-2009
Posts: 582
Location: Wales
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BOS + S.S.

You forget

2h gunners get extra chance to hit also. So if your lower percept than us using titanium set and higher def + tough items we hit lots less

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

01-20-2010 22:24

darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

Thread Starter Thread Started by darksnow

except this time its not baseless accusations.

snipers dont get a +hit from weapon
PERCEPTION +12, AGILITY -7, attacks per round: 2, chance for critical hit +74 %, ignores 100 % of your opponent`s defence, overall weapon damage +20 %

not everyone is required to go sniper tattoo, and even if they did, 75 chance to hit =/= 90 chance to hit.

plus, 75 chance to hit, thats only adding 25.
however, since the 1H guns bonus is a percentage, that means it ramps up pretty easily.

the perception needed for a sniper rifle to hit 200 would be 175, with 25 from tatoo.

with the gun, you only need 120 if you're a collector, 148 if you're not.

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Underworld -> Yuki
Necro-> DarkSnow

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darksnow: 01-20-2010 23:30.

01-20-2010 23:26

Foxy
Viking

Registration Date: 05-02-2009
Posts: 582
Location: Wales
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BOS + S.S.

Whats the +12 percept? =P

Thats chance to hit AND chance to dodge.

For 1h guns its hard to get percept + dmg high

2h just work mainly on percept or tanking gear.

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

01-21-2010 01:40

darksnow
Junior Member

Registration Date: 10-23-2009
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: End

Thread Starter Thread Started by darksnow

foxes, that +12 percept is what brings the 2h sniper to 200 perception.
in any other matchup, this would not work.
you dont see a 120 agility melee easily hit a 200 agility melee.
same as with this, a 120, or 148, 1H gunman should not be hitting a 200 perception sniper.

now foxy, to get a tanking gear, you sacrafice your current gear, which can help you increase perception. since the rifle is stuck with measly little bonus to perception, it cannot compare at all to the bonus 1h guns are giving.

a sniper rifle at 120 perception should not hit a 200 perception 1H gun. actually, it cant.

likewise, a melee weapon user at 120 agility cannot hit a 200 agility melee.

at your comment about both chance to hit and chance to dodge.
with that perception bonus included, you finally hit 200 perception, or even so, at higher stat levels, 10 perception means nothing.
then there is the chance to hit, you'd be hitting ihm anyways, since you have 80 perception on him.
the only problem is, why he can hit you even though you have 80 perception on him.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darksnow: 01-21-2010 02:39.

01-21-2010 02:37

Foxy
Viking

Registration Date: 05-02-2009
Posts: 582
Location: Wales
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BOS + S.S.

About tank Set

Duh wou loss percept but you get toughness = damaga is leaa on you.

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

01-21-2010 02:43

diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.

Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Get your facts right darksnow! You're mixing different tattoos, equips, facts etc.
Yes, I can see how a ''low'' agility BK can hit a zerker/assassin/hobby 1h melee because of the legendary bonus.

I'm off this discussion, that again, happened to become pointless.
I'm talking ingame with Scyanidde and HamsterGod.

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01-21-2010 08:24

kraftie
Double Ace

Registration Date: 11-18-2007
Posts: 101
Race in game: Absorber

Lmao, If you don't like being farmed by 1h Gunners read this thread over again and make a proper analytical decision.

Laptops poo so cant quote:

- Diablo said that toughness weakens the damage of 1h Guns. He also said the problem is in the Damage not the perception (Since both types of can gunners hit eachother having higher perception little means in attack)

- Attack is the best form of defence (Increasing weapon damage will be the best way to beat 1h Guns) Obviously in an ideal world this would be Assualt/Horned Mask of Precognition (Because Deadly reduces Toughness and Masks gives you atleast 3 free attacks providing you have instructor and have leg sniper), Field Cape of Deathsower, Panzer/Compound shorts of Shepard (Contradicting myself but you need some perception).

The advantages and disadvantages of guns shouldn't be changed because you can't find a way around 1h gunners. There are very few 1h Gunners I can beat but I don't moan about stats.

01-21-2010 16:43

LucifersAngel
Lord

Registration Date: 04-19-2009
Posts: 430
Location: Cornwall, UK
Race in game: Absorber

You can sit about and moan about the game all you want really, but the point is this. You are mixing a lot of facts up, with varying degrees of success, and it's just getting irritating. None more than your apparent maths skills (this might be regarded as spam, but it has to be corrected):

quote:

Originally posted:
the max crit cap is 85, you CANT go above that.
the chance of all 3 attacks critting is 61%, which rounded up to 66% would get you 2 crits out of 3 attacks.

The chance of getting 3 crits in a row with 85% chance is 61.41%. This does not mean that there is a 61% chance of getting a critical hit. Nor does this mean you only get 2/3 critical hits on a statistical scale. This is the probability that there is a 61.41% chance that you would get all three attacks in one round to be critical. This means that in more than half the cases of presented data, you would get three criticals in the same round. The chance of getting 2/3 crits would be 72.25%. I hope you understand what this means. What you did was took two separate statistics, and combined them for the sake of making said statistic look worse.

Back on topic though. It has been said a LOT. It is difficult to maintain perception with equipment for 1h gunner and still keep damage high. Even if you manage this, there is a serious loss of defence for the player, and it makes it more difficult to defend.

Overall, the tattoo paths are all pretty even and messing about with the tattoos is a bad idea. It's taken a lot to try and make the playing field even, so why tamper with it? Each class and tattoo has its strengths and weaknesses. Do we really need to discuss this AGAIN?

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01-21-2010 17:46

fool
Lord

Registration Date: 02-14-2008
Posts: 380
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: boot camp

i belive that the 2h melles and 1h guns % to hitt is a bit powerfull with no negative side effects like range but everybody got what they needed to some degree 2h guns needed more attacks they got it 2h melee needed more chance to hit they got it

just cause 1h guns are powerfull now doesn't mean they will stay that way range is coming up a bit and when someone merges a good 1h mellee people will complin about that just leavit for now

wait for the next act 2h gunns will get a bigger bonus then 1h gunns that time round

01-21-2010 19:48

Artoir.
Avenger

Registration Date: 02-24-2008
Posts: 1,111
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: V13

RE: 1H guns vs 2H guns

I am honestly considering trying to convince Szeszej to implement a new rule covering the entirety of this board;

"Any moaning, complaining, bickering or general unrest about balance and threads entitled "but his tattoz r way better" or "i needz more crits aaaararrrrararraarrgghh" will result in a warning."

For christ's sake, a bit of moaning done when a new patch is implemented is understandable, like that done by non Cultists was fair enough after Searing Blood was introduced. But even now most people with more than 2 brain cells have copped on the other tattoos are just as advantageous. Or maybe even when legendary 2h melee came into full swing. But what are you trying to prove now? The 1h/2h gun thing has been done to death, use the bloody search function! It's there to be used!

@Darksnow

Reading the first line of your thread here..

quote:

Originally posted by darksnow
i'e seen/heard waay too many arguements about this

Why the hell make another thread then? Any ounce of experience on this board would lead you to come to the conclusion that another one is going to get nowhere and never will.

I'm not sure if you had grand dreams of uniting Bloodwars once and for all and saving the day or otherwise, but either you're seriously deluded or you're just trying to spark off another endless, spiralling, full circle debate!

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01-22-2010 04:48

demonfury v2
Lord

Registration Date: 12-30-2009
Posts: 411
Location: nottingham
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: LGN

dead easy simple way to fix this and shut all the moaners up once and for all

tattoos, gunman gets 1 hit at level 3 and another at level 5

sniper gets 1 hit at level 5

edit the tattoo so snipers get 1 hit at level 3 and another at level 5

if theres still crying snipers at this point, CHANGE YA DAMN PATH!!!

this is a fair solution in my eyes

evenly based tattoos Smile

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01-22-2010 06:01

diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.

Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Demonfury, that idea is not even close to being a fair solution and it is even further from ''evenly based tattoos''
Before you suggest something that radical you should think about the impact it would have on all stages of the game. I can't be bothered to explain into details how this could not work at all and how it would ruin the game entirely.

Forget about it. After all the threads about this I'd say the devs know about it and the only thing we can do is wait. if something changes.

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01-22-2010 09:29

demonfury v2
Lord

Registration Date: 12-30-2009
Posts: 411
Location: nottingham
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: LGN

it would make sure an even based tattoo

+2 shots on a 1h gunner tattoo

+1 shot on a 2h gunner tattoo - very equal

however, this was implemented, there should be only 1 shot viable to guns like ak47's and fn - fals, so like chance the spec of the sniper tattoo to only work for certain 2h guns, eg sniper, shotgun, semi auto sniper and hunting rifle Smile

but like you said diblo, this topic has been around pretty much since the dawn of the games creation, lets sit back and see what happens

__________________
war with reason can be excused
war with no reason or bull justification holds no excuse
me thinks hll are on a power trip
IGN: acidic shots

01-22-2010 14:18

kraftie
Double Ace

Registration Date: 11-18-2007
Posts: 101
Race in game: Absorber

Demonfury how explain?
On paper by itself yes but taking into account the rest of the statistics, try again!

If anything 1/h mellee was given the least and as the later monsters are getting faster and have more defence weaker meleeists are at the biggest disadvantage.
Rarely one of them have complained.

Use what you got thats the most you can do! Ask the top snipers how to better yourself! Gunmen have diablo in the spot light constantly to learn from (Thank you for making the game a better place).

Why dont you apply his techniques to your tattoo?

01-23-2010 12:42

LucifersAngel
Lord

Registration Date: 04-19-2009
Posts: 430
Location: Cornwall, UK
Race in game: Absorber

I wish people would stop blaming the game for their failings. If something isn't working for you, don't blame your tattoo or say others have it easier, work on it and find a better solution! Each weapon class and tattoo has its benefits and detrements. Just because you have a problem with what you have, don't try and make the game easier or change it to suit you, work out the issue by changing the way you play. Change your equipment for example. The tattoo paths are all reasonably level and fair, as are the legendary bonuses. As I said before, it plays into each different weapon class differently, so whilst one bonus looks better than the other, overall they are pretty fair. Yeah 1h guns get +35% to hit, 2h guns get an additonal attack, 1h melee gets 10% to crit and 5% dodge, 2h melee gets +25% chance to hit and crit, and ranged weapons get chance to hit +30% and -45% crit. Each has their benefits. Stop criticising the game and work on getting better. Can we please close this annoying thread yet? It's not as though we need to discuss this entire topic again.

__________________

Martyrdom against Fascism
Fascist Instituation of Control
Recognition - Rejection - Resentment
Para todos todo, para nosotros nada
For everyone everything, for us nothing
EZLN

01-23-2010 13:00

kraftie
Double Ace

Registration Date: 11-18-2007
Posts: 101
Race in game: Absorber

Nope because they think this is playground wars. He's got more toys, her toys bigger. Whaw its not fair how come he has 2 attacks from his tattoo I want 2 attacks. On an up side I only need 1 twisted hand item to make my better set Smile

In the same week found my first solar piece so :L

01-23-2010 13:15

Bat
Double Ace

Registration Date: 07-23-2008
Posts: 124
Location: Estonia
Race in game: Beastmaster

1H guns vs 2H guns fight wins the guy with better gear/level/luck or the one giving illegal favors to RNG cause in this game everyone can't buy same items when they reach level 10 or 20 and so we can't compare only weapons/tattoos in my opinion.
(EDIT: Okay we can but It won't give any actual result ingame )

Thanks
Bat.

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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Bat: 01-23-2010 19:39.

01-23-2010 19:30

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

personnally ppl round my lvl we give as good as we get weather it be leg 1 hand gun or 2 hand gun melee. if somwone like mortis,diablo,blod attacked me i would expect to lose. they have worked hard at there stuff.

your sqaure,gear,lvl does have alot to do with it.

its how you go about making yourself better against thoses weakness that make you a better player.

i used to comment on how unfair 1 handed guns were and how 2 handed guns were left out. i even started a few threads on it.

but that was before i got a legendary gun. now i have one i see that it is fair. yeah if you havent got a legendray weapon its hard. but i think untill you get a legendary weapon (yeah its hard to get one) you cant comment on it.

if anything they fine. if the devs want to give 2.5 crit i wont complain but when i hit you for 550 a crit am sure the melee players will. then it will be same stuff in boards just diffrent weapons. just leave things as they are and see what happens.

am not even going to post in threads like this anymore because its pointless now.

edit grammer

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by darc: 01-23-2010 20:17.

01-23-2010 20:16

demonfury v2
Lord

Registration Date: 12-30-2009
Posts: 411
Location: nottingham
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: LGN

im not blamin the game for failings

im a hunter and i use the tattoo to my advantage, for my level im a good player and only gettign better

all im saying is this, although the sniper tattoo is a very good tattoo, its rather biast when weapons are concerned

for instance

gunman tattoo compliments all 1h guns pretty well as far as i can see

the sniper tattoo compliments all but to, the hunting rifle and of course its namesake, the sniper rifle

i know the obvious choice would be to stop using your fail rifle and go for something a bit more effective like a fn - fal or a shotgun

its clear the snipers in the game who moan are not going to do that anytime soon, so maybe design a sniper specific tattoo?? or change the value on the sniper tatto to give +2 hits at level 5 but only for the hunting rifle and sniper

__________________
war with reason can be excused
war with no reason or bull justification holds no excuse
me thinks hll are on a power trip
IGN: acidic shots

01-23-2010 21:03

kraftie
Double Ace

Registration Date: 11-18-2007
Posts: 101
Race in game: Absorber

Failed again!
Think of this as an economy if you put too little in it will underperform and if you put too much in and BW will be in ruins and there will be no space using any other path yet alone playing at all.
Do you know what caused the global reccession?
Risks caused by greed!
Snipers have it too easy! Like its been said in the past they are custom built for expos. Where you get the most exp gain.
How about giving the other paths another attck since no-one fights for monks?
Patches will be made when its right until then you've just got to upgrade your buildings and eq.

01-23-2010 21:27

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