 Patch V1.0.0.5 |
Konrad
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 227
Location: Poland
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Imagine we have 10+ language version of BloodWars. What you're asking us above is to reply on every post on every forum. In that case my question is how could we find time to work on new patches?
English is not our native language. Therefore we employ our project managers for other countries, which are the connectors between foreign players and us. You can't blame us for not spending whole days answering every single post on every single forums.
Another thing - compare average posts per day on both forums. I don't know how it comes, but english people doesn't like to write much on forums, 98% of players just ignores it (and it happens with other (even more popular) games too).
And the most important thing - the fact we don't write much on other language forums, doesn't mean we don't know about players' problems and opinions.
The problems with junk are being discussed, we're getting your opinions from every language version, so we can propose a solution. Feel free to propose yours.
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01-20-2008 10:15 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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And we're not expecting you to answer every post BUT A LITTLE BIT OF COMMUNICATION ON THE IMPORTANT POINTS WOULD BE GOOD because although 98% of players MAY ignore the forums but it has looked for a long time that YOU ignore the 2% that don't.
Quite frankly Szeszej is the only one that appears to show an interest in Underworld, and as you can quite clearly see this is causing quite a lot of frustration and annoyance because when it comes to suggestions it seems that the only points taken into consideration are the ones from the PL servers.
Another thing that causes frustration is that half the time Szeszej can't answer our questions .... I assume because he's kept, in the main, as much in the dark as we are, so if you want an effective forum here, brief him properly on the things that he is going to be asked.
And you say the problems with junk are being discussed ..... as it's taken you 5 days to even respond to a post from Underworld asking you a simple question (which I thank you for answering, albeit indirectly) it would seem that, at best, our concerns and ideas are being discussed not by merging them with the concerns and ideas from all servers and discussing them on all forums, but by taking them to the PL server 'think tanks' and deciding on a course of action for underworld without getting our feedback (as usual).
Please understand that this is not an attack on you personally, but on the way the development team have been working as far as Underworld goes. As I don't read French I cannot comment on any concerns that they may have, but I would assume that they have the same problem, regardless of their views on it. It has been clearly shown that just because an update gets standing ovations and fanfares in Moria, it's not necessarily going to work as well if at all here ..... what we need is balance to the game, I and plenty of others have made suggestions for this before ..... and recieved no replies of note (I assume you can see where this would cause the animosity that you have seen over the last few days). Tell me, how would it look to you if you were talking to someone and they didn't reply, respond or even indicate that they knew you were talking to them? You'd think they were ignorant ..... and this is exactly whats happened here.
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01-20-2008 13:24 |
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Mortis
Emperor
Registration Date: 05-01-2007
Posts: 1,159
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS exLead
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First of all, thank you for your time you have spent posting the answer, but..
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Originally posted by Konrad
Imagine we have 10+ language version of BloodWars. What you're asking us above is to reply on every post on every forum. In that case my question is how could we find time to work on new patches? |
You have currenly 3 language versions not 10. We are not asking you to reply to every post, but few answers here and there would be nice. If you have over 6000 posts on polish board I think few more here won't kill you.
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| English is not our native language. Therefore we employ our project managers for other countries, which are the connectors between foreign players and us. You can't blame us for not spending whole days answering every single post on every single forums. |
Mine also not, but as I can see from your post you can write fluently in it, so I don't see problem here. I know you have managers taking care of different servers, but they must be informed from you how to answer or translate your comments to players. Again, we don't blame you for not answering to every post, but a little reaction would be really appreciated.
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Another thing - compare average posts per day on both forums. I don't know how it comes, but english people doesn't like to write much on forums, 98% of players just ignores it (and it happens with other (even more popular) games too).
And the most important thing - the fact we don't write much on other language forums, doesn't mean we don't know about players' problems and opinions. |
Ehm, polish forum serves to players for 6 servers by now, so there will be much more posts than here. As for english people liking to post, well you surely heard about their cold nature, but there are still many of them whom are different. It doesn't matter how much activity is here compared to polish board, because we also deserves answers. It's certainly nice that you know about our problems and opinions, but how we should know that you know it if you don't post a single word saying so.
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| The problems with junk are being discussed, we're getting your opinions from every language version, so we can propose a solution. Feel free to propose yours. |
At least some good news here, but could be someone so nice and post here some of the suggestions from other language versions, so we also know them? Can we also know your proposal of possible solution?
My proposal posted earlier.
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Originally posted by Mortis
Maybe at first look the junk seems to be a good idea, but the reality shows us that it wasn't thought to full extent how big impact it will have on Underworld economy and it's cash flow. I think it negatively hit majority of players and would be wise to consider the removal of junk.
To satisfy the dev team to offer players some ability how to store money for upgrades as these are at certain level highly expensive I would like to suggest one idea which is working in other game I am playing.
It's quite easy and players will be able to save money and at the same time there will still be the possibility to get them through ambushes and sieges. It would introduce new building. The Bank. But there will be certain limitations. You will be able to deposit only 25% of your current cash once per day, but withdraw them as often as you want and as much as you want.
I could be easily implemented and will restart the cash flow. |
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01-20-2008 14:41 |
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draculaisemo
Lord
Registration Date: 10-02-2007
Posts: 431
Location: England
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoD
Thread Starter 
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edit post next time.
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01-20-2008 16:38 |
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Velf
Newbie
Registration Date: 12-10-2007
Posts: 9
Race in game: Beastmaster
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I am probably going against the grain here but I would like to say I LOVE JUNK! There was nothing worse than gathering all your hard earned cash into a big pile only to turn on the computer the next day to find it all gone and you had to start again. I had resorted to having my own junk fund in my armoury. High value items that I did not need that I would sell when I needed to upgrade my buildings. Junk has just replaced what a lot of people were already doing, hording their money.
Ok so getting money is now much harder but that means you have to be organised. Personally I used to use lgo like water, spy half way across the game three times in a row etc, never thinking how much money I was using. What was the point? All I had to do was ambush some poor lower level player hand I'd have another 100, 000 lgo to play with.
I have had no problem upgrading buildings etc. I ambush and sell stuff, every time I hit that magic 20,000 number the money goes into junk. Sure it takes longer but it is far less annoying than trying to build up your funds only to have them snatched before you could use them. It's a much fairer system I feel. Now I don't mind getting ambushed because I'm not going to have to start from scratch and I don't mind trying to take on higher level players because I know that my money is safely tucked away. If I fail it is not a disaster.
This is not a game that you are meant to advance rapidly in. Personally I think organisation and planning of how to use your resources is now the issue. People who have never had to do it before don't like it. Auctioning Junk is also a good idea. I’ve been relatively unlucky with finding actionable items. What is the point of upgrading something you only get 1 BS for? This way I’ve kept myself in BS when I have needed to upgrade my equipment.
Bloodwars has my full support in introducing this, many of the lower players I know also like it. It's just my opinion but I believe game play has improved. Perhaps I'm a strategist at heart but I know what I like and I like Junk.
Now feel free to pick my argument to shreds, schism and debate are the life blood of society. Bloodwars should be no exception ;-) 
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01-20-2008 18:22 |
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draculaisemo
Lord
Registration Date: 10-02-2007
Posts: 431
Location: England
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoD
Thread Starter
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it was aimed at you. you have two consecutive posts right there. 0_.
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01-20-2008 18:40 |
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DarkOne
Lord
Registration Date: 11-12-2007
Posts: 359
Location: Germany
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS
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seems like the low players like it, i wonder how long, inactive players provide a nice source for Lgo as long as you can attack them 
, personally i never had this problem of getting my Lgo harvested untill i had around 60 points ...
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01-20-2008 19:28 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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And just to prove it drac, here goes again 
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
I am probably going against the grain here but I would like to say I LOVE JUNK! There was nothing worse than gathering all your hard earned cash into a big pile only to turn on the computer the next day to find it all gone and you had to start again. I had resorted to having my own junk fund in my armoury. High value items that I did not need that I would sell when I needed to upgrade my buildings. Junk has just replaced what a lot of people were already doing, hording their money.
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Now why would you be going against the grain? We are all entitled to opinions, and the only way to get a system running that will be acceptable to the majority of players is to hear and discuss the views of both sides of the fence.
I can see your point on the frustrations of losing a good proportion of your cash overnight, I've had the same problem up here in the lofty heights (damn you and your suicide weapons Zauborin
lol ). The problem with the junk system is that it has been sprung without warning on us, so the low level players who have access to ready cash through ambushing the myriad inactives are well provided for, as are the high levels who are stocked up with stones and the equipment to readily get more at 24 hours notice. But the mid levels who are just that bit too high to take advantage of the inactive cash-cow but not yet high enough to have stocked up on enough stones to make an impact (and with the luck of some people not getting the decent equipment for auctioning) are left out in the cold with hindered progress and not much chance of that changing in the near future.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
Ok so getting money is now much harder but that means you have to be organised. Personally I used to use lgo like water, spy half way across the game three times in a row etc, never thinking how much money I was using. What was the point? All I had to do was ambush some poor lower level player hand I'd have another 100, 000 lgo to play with.
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at the level of building you (assumably) are on at the moment, upgrading is no great shakes, but when you get to the point where your buildings are getting far more expensive ( 1/2 a million Lgo for some upgrades to zone 2 and 3 buildings) then the junk systems economically destructive effect can be seen ...... just to build a single Blood Bank level in zone 2 would take 50 junk, or to do the pilgrimage tasks in zones 3 and 4 would take around 100 (or maybe more if luck was against you) .....
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
I have had no problem upgrading buildings etc. I ambush and sell stuff, every time I hit that magic 20,000 number the money goes into junk. Sure it takes longer but it is far less annoying than trying to build up your funds only to have them snatched before you could use them. It's a much fairer system I feel. Now I don't mind getting ambushed because I'm not going to have to start from scratch and I don't mind trying to take on higher level players because I know that my money is safely tucked away. If I fail it is not a disaster.
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Now I would say that comment proves that some of the challenge and risk has been taken out of the game ..... yes, hitting someone and losing can be frustrating, but being able to shore up all your resources so that they can't be taken wipes out part of the game as far as I can see it.
I've ambushed people and had bad luck with hitting, or needed 'just one more critical' and lost (at times when I'm on the end of a lucky streak the loss sometimes ran up to 100k lgo and 20k blood, an immense amount in zone 3) ..... I don't see a problem with that, but ambushing is a risk like everything else, this just takes out part of the penalty for failure.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
This is not a game that you are meant to advance rapidly in. Personally I think organisation and planning of how to use your resources is now the issue. People who have never had to do it before don't like it. Auctioning Junk is also a good idea. I’ve been relatively unlucky with finding actionable items. What is the point of upgrading something you only get 1 BS for? This way I’ve kept myself in BS when I have needed to upgrade my equipment.
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Ah, now here we get to the interesting point, planning out how to use your resources ..... this is easy in the lower levels, you just ambush everyone you can and buy junk either to keep or auction ..... and it's also easy in the higher levels, just buy as much as you can at auction.
But then we come to the mid levels ..... how do they plan the usage of something that they don't have because they're at the 'wrong level' when a patch is introduced, same as it has been for the lower and mid levels in previous patches. What is needed is for a balance to be struck ....... yes i agree patches won't please everyone, but the devs have to get out of the habit of releasing this form of biased patch and look at how they can balance things up.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
Now feel free to pick my argument to shreds, schism and debate are the life blood of society. Bloodwars should be no exception ;-)
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Picking your argument to shreds, nah, I'd rather just put my points of view over on it and diccuss
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Originally posted by DarkOne
seems like the low players like it, i wonder how long, inactive players provide a nice source for Lgo as long as you can attack them
, personally i never had this problem of getting my Lgo harvested untill i had around 60 points ... |
But how long is that going to last for? Szeszej said in one of the other threads that sometime in the future there will be a purge of inactive/banned players, when that happens a good proportion of the cashflow from the lower level end of the game will disappear overnight, and then there will be a low level drought, junk will be harder to get because of the reduced cashflow, which means the higher level cashflow will also be pretty much crippled. The mid levels won't be affected in the main because most of them are already in that position
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 01-20-2008 19:35.
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01-20-2008 19:28 |
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DarkOne
Lord
Registration Date: 11-12-2007
Posts: 359
Location: Germany
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS
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Gendibal you actually gave a good point about mid lvl players.
Do you think a lot of players will stay stuck around lvl 30 because they cannot compete with the let's say top 150 and cannot get enough cash from the lower players, while the top 150 is just using them for cash ambushes ?
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01-20-2008 19:34 |
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draculaisemo
Lord
Registration Date: 10-02-2007
Posts: 431
Location: England
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoD
Thread Starter
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mleh sorry gendibal
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01-20-2008 19:41 |
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Velf
Newbie
Registration Date: 12-10-2007
Posts: 9
Race in game: Beastmaster
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Speaking as a level 31 I am not having any of the problems you are talking about.... Yet. I admit I have not the experiance of many here all I know is that so far I have benifited from the system. I am still advancing and I don't tend to poach off inactive players, many are not worth my time.
That has been one side effect I guess, the inactive players are getting hit a lot more often. Nearly all of them in my normal attack range are on protection time when I log on. If there is a purge of them then a lot of people will lose out.
It did take me three days hard work to get enough junk to upgrade my brothel recently. 200,000 lgo. But I would have never have been able to gather the money with the amount of times I am ambushed without junk.
As for the risk being taken out of the game... Well I like it better this way maybe I'm not much of a thrill seeker as you Gendibal ;-)
If there is a problem with resorce gathering I would be the first to shout about it, but so far I am a happy camper.
I will say one thing however, this should have gone through a consultation process. Even if I like the system there was a lot of confusion over the changes even within my own clan. An anouncement should have been made in game at the very least!
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01-20-2008 20:51 |
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diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.
Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
I have had no problem upgrading buildings etc. I ambush and sell stuff, every time I hit that magic 20,000 number the money goes into junk. |
If everyone does it like this how would you 'hit that magic 20,000'? Definitely not from ambushes.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
It did take me three days hard work to get enough junk to upgrade my brothel recently. 200,000 lgo. But I would have never have been able to gather the money with the amount of times I am ambushed without junk. |
Lucky you, I'm happy when I get 1 junk a day.
Pople in top 50 (as far as I know) have nobody to attack for Lgo. My personal progress has slowed down because of junk - I just can't get enough Lgo to upgrade buildings even if I meet the requirements. Items in auctions will become more expensive, adding the cost of mana and nanites as well, because to have them you need to destroy items you could just sell to the shop. If this is the way the patch was designed to work then everything is fine.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Velf
As for the risk being taken out of the game... Well I like it better this way maybe I'm not much of a thrill seeker as you Gendibal ;-) |
Hmm, I can sell my defensive equipment now...
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by diablo: 01-21-2008 00:10.
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01-21-2008 00:09 |
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Sidneykidney
Junior Member
Registration Date: 01-10-2008
Posts: 24
Location: Scotland, UK
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Do ideas like junk get discussed on the forums BEFORE the patch is released, or only afterwards. Surely discussing it before would bring better results....
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01-22-2008 21:30 |
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DarkOne
Lord
Registration Date: 11-12-2007
Posts: 359
Location: Germany
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS
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well thats the thing, it hasn't been discussed on this board before, maybe on the polish boards
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01-22-2008 21:41 |
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Konrad
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 227
Location: Poland
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The patch 1.0.0.7 has been released to address this issue. Hopefully (with next patch which will be upgraded soon, we want to give you a little time to build Old Marker) it'll help.
Grendibal, Szeszej is our project manager for english version of BloodWars, so he can answer most of your question. He knows that if he doesn't know the answer, he has to contact us directly, and he did it several times before.
As you may already know, there are 2 types of realms. In the first type (not released in english yet) junk was the great idea, as you can easily trade it with other players. Auction is less flexible, and that's the reason of this problem. I hope you understand 
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Premium problems >> use Premium reporting option in game.
Question about game >> use "Words of advice" forum.
Other >> pm Szeszej
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01-23-2008 09:36 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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I can understand the idea behind it Konrad, and in theory it is a good one ..... the problem lies in time of implementation.
Because the server is already established, and the Lgo economy has already been stabilised, the introduction of a method of hoarding resources is going to upset that economy. Basic laws of economy say that if you introduce huge amounts of cash into an economic system it devalues the currency and destabilises the entire economy (Look at Zimbabwe), similarly if you remove a large proportion of a currency from circulation, it increases the value of the currency ..... but if you remove too much, as in the case of junk in BW, it has the sme effect by creating a currency that even the holding population cannot afford.
Both of the above scenarios cause economic disasters, the US in the 1930's and Zimbabwe since 1980 are two prime examples of this.
Unfortunately the solution you have factored into the patch isn't going to work, because similar to Zimbabwe's problem, capping and changing prices of an end product does not affect supply of that product to sections of the population who cannot afford it for one reason or another in the first place.
It is simply not logical to introduce the junk system 'mid game', with the problems that have been discussed so far, it is quite clear that it is a 'clean server' system, from the start of a game or not at all.
I know Szeszej is the UK project manager, I have quite a few good discussions with him over the finer points of the patches ..... but for instance when it came to patch 1.1, he couldn't say what was actually in it so that any problems could be brought to light in advance because he didn't know. He's a bloody good project manager, but he isn't being kept fully up to date, which means that the international (not just UK) players who are trying to forward the progress of the game can only work reactively instead of proactively as most of us would like to be given the chance to do.
I suggested earlier in the thread an open forum on patches in advance of their release so that any problems that are unforseen by your team, yet are self evident to the players can be brought to light in advance of the actual release ..... given that the open forum would have to have a limited number of players, from a broad cross section of levels and servers ..... would this be an acceptable idea for improvement to you?
We know that you want to create a game that is fun and fair, and it's in our interests to help you do that, the problem has always lay in communication and willingness to accept the help we offer.
I also know that a lot of my posts sound a little off colour and offensive, but pulling punches and tiptoeing round sensitivities isn't going to get any solution hammered out.
And as a final note of humour:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Konrad
Grendibal
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Woohoo, I'm finally half way to being a monster ....... all I need to do now is figure out how to make the final transition into Grendel
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This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 01-23-2008 10:23.
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01-23-2008 09:57 |
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Sidneykidney
Junior Member
Registration Date: 01-10-2008
Posts: 24
Location: Scotland, UK
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Perhaps a solution is to make a limit to the amount of money you can put into junk. But rather than having a simple cash limit, make it a percentage of the amount you have.
eg instead of having 100,000 Lgo and buying all the junk you can afford (possible at the moment) make it so you can only put 50% of the money you have into Junk. That way people can still 'bank' money, saving it for when they need to build buildings etc. but sieges and attacks are still worthwhile as people do have money to take.
With the above rule in place you can only buy 50,000 Lgo of junk and 50,000 remains in your account. If you are attacked and you lose 20,000 the figures do not balance and you are not allowed to buy any more junk until the 50/50 proportion is corrected. You can still sell your junk. Its all about keeping the 50/50 balance.
So how is that? What am I missing? There is still cash to be gained... lower levels can protect their gold.... sieges are made more worthwhile....
Any flaws?
SidneyKidney
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01-23-2008 20:14 |
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Artoir.
Avenger
Registration Date: 02-24-2008
Posts: 1,111
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: V13
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mortis
Maybe at first look the junk seems to be a good idea, but the reality shows us that it wasn't thought to full extent how big impact it will have on Underworld economy and it's cash flow. I think it negatively hit majority of players and would be wise to consider the removal of junk.
To satisfy the dev team to offer players some ability how to store money for upgrades as these are at certain level highly expensive I would like to suggest one idea which is working in other game I am playing.
It's quite easy and players will be able to save money and at the same time there will still be the possibility to get them through ambushes and sieges. It would introduce new building. The Bank. But there will be certain limitations. You will be able to deposit only 25% of your current cash once per day, but withdraw them as often as you want and as much as you want.
I could be easily implemented and will restart the cash flow. |
Ive also seen this "Banking" system implemented in similar games, such as Hooded Gunman (which is terrible by the way, so dont punish me for advertising
)
It works perfectly, allowing players to put cash aside and save for weapons, etc, whilst maintaining the cashflow of the game.
Personally im doing alright for Lgo at the moment and im actually still managing to buy junk maybe once a day, but i can see that its going to get harder as i progress further (currently lvl 39)
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02-24-2008 04:51 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Artoir.
Ive also seen this "Banking" system implemented in similar games, such as Hooded Gunman (which is terrible by the way, so dont punish me for advertising
)
It works perfectly, allowing players to put cash aside and save for weapons, etc, whilst maintaining the cashflow of the game.
Personally im doing alright for Lgo at the moment and im actually still managing to buy junk maybe once a day, but i can see that its going to get harder as i progress further (currently lvl 39) |
That banking system would work perfectly, but as has been shown in the past on many occasions the suggestion has been simply IGNORED WITHOUT COMMENT for approximately 4 weeks. Does that sound like the way to run a game (or a business) to you ........ nope, thought not.
Level 39 is coming up to the top end of the low levels at the moment ...... the tricky part is going to be (rough estimate) between levels 42 and 50.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 02-24-2008 20:48.
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02-24-2008 20:48 |
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Lysandra
Viking
Registration Date: 01-11-2008
Posts: 531
Location: Canada
Race in game: Beastmaster
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A bank would be a good idea since a lot of people (including myself) have gone a little junk crazy and don't let their logo get past 20,000.
Quite personally I like the idea of being able to store your resources away and not have to worry if you get attacked by stronger players. If a bank is created though, it should also store people and blood. Not all of it mind you, restrictions should be in effect. Say, you can only have about half your resources in the bank at any given time or something to that effect.
I can see junk making it difficult in the higher levels but right now I've got so much I really don't have to worry. As I get stronger, I'll only get more so I don't see logo being a big issue for me.
I agree with a lot of people here in the simple fact that junk should have been explained better once it was introduced. A lot of people had no idea what it did. I personally thought it would open up a whole new trading unit besides the auction. I've noticed quite a few things aren't explained in full when introduced to the English server, it kind of makes me wish I was a polish player.
There will always be problems with a game that is just starting out, or has not been out long. New ideas come to the development teams mind and they decided to throw it in to make the game 'better'. But, if something is established, throwing in something to make it better, could in fact, make it worse.
I can't wait until they get rid of the players who are banned or haven't been around for like six months. Then we'll see cash limitations and sieging inactives for a better square will become obsolete. It will make the game more interesting though...
Lysandra
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Former leader of the Family of Darkness.
Buying titanium neckwear of accuracy. PM in game.
Check out my website: www.vonravenstone.com
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Originally posted by *GayTiger*
lys... that was amazing, it's pure orgasm on a page!
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02-24-2008 21:25 |
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