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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
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Hello BW Team,
First let me say (not in an arse-licking way); I love this game. I say that because I do not want you to think that I am posting this here just to have a go at you, or to ask you to make the game easier. That said, I will proceed…
Problems
As you may or may not be aware there has been some discussion on the boards about the current flow of the blood resource. Now, I know that only a month or so ago it was the junk / money problem that we were all bleating about, and now it seems that you've evened up that problem, we've started bleating on about another.
However; maybe these items are linked? Players have definitely suggested this in the various threads of discussion - please feel free to read:-
Where has all the blood gone?
Annoyance
Anyway, my suggestion is to make the resource producing buildings generate more sensible & graduated resources. I believe the aim of the game is a slow climb through the rankings & zones to achieve the ultimate prize of being the hardest mofo vampire in the city. However, there are drawbacks with this style of game.
If, as you grow in strength & stature, the benefits you gain from your resources do not grow at a similar rate, you will not be able to achieve the harder aspects of the game. Which is what a lot of the players are currently suffering; and obviously, once one part of the community suffers the knock on effect is imminent. Hence the current starvation issues.
Now, I cannot speak for buildings I do not possess. But as I have said before; my slaughterhouse only generates +5 l/h every time I up grade it – no matter what level I upgrade it to! How is that a sensible gradient?
Yes, I know there are more buildings that generate blood. I also have a surgery; this (as I have said before) only generates +3 l/h every time it is upgraded – why is it lower that the slaughterhouse – it makes no sense!
If, as I grow the enemies that I face, and my need for blood to re-generate are both greater, it stands to reason that the resources I accumulate & build, must also grow at an equal rate; yet there are no helpful hints to tell me what level I should get my resources to in order to make everything grow equally. I currently generate 95 l/h; this is not enough for my level, which is 41. Yes, I could build my resources more; but at what cost? The requirements are becoming ridiculously high considering I will only get another pathetic +5 l/h.
Result – I have to waste half (sometimes more) my daily attacks on lower levels; which means my growth rate slows down & so it becomes increasingly difficult to meet the requirements of building up my square… can you see where I’m going with this?
I know, your answer will be, to do quests to gain blood & experience. However, everyone knows that you get more experience & blood from individual quests, rather than the caravans. But not ALL of your players have the luxury of being able to spend the time online to get all of their quests & all of their attacks done in one day, without using the caravan. So therefore the benefit of using the caravan is instantly crippled.
I for one am lucky that I can be online most of the day & night, and have BW running in the background behind my work; but I still don’t sometimes manage to fit in all my quests & attacks. So you have to ask yourselves – how are you trying to entice your players to stay committed?
I agree with, & happily accept the premise that this game is meant to be difficult. I relish that challenge; and because it is difficult, that helps to give it the longevity that a game as enjoyable as this deserves. However, there is such a thing as making a game too difficult, so that you alienate your players, & undermine the strengths of the game’s capacity. Which I sadly have to admit is currently happening.
Solutions?
Well, I’m not a games developer; so I am not claiming to have the answers. But I would have said that evening out the structure of the resources would be obvious. As I suggested in another post – why not increase the resources from buildings as the buildings themselves increase. For example, Slaughterhouse generates +5 l/h from level 1 to 5, then it generates +7 l/h from level 5 to 10, then it generates +10 l/h from level 10 to 15, etc, etc.
You could do this equally for the other resource buildings. The Surgery generates +3 l/h until level 3, and then it generates 6 l/h until level 6, etc.
By this measure, a vampire with a level 15 Slaughterhouse & level 4 Surgery could be producing:-
Slaughterhouse
Level 1 = +15 l/h
Level 2 – 5 = +20 l/h
Level 6 – 10 = +35 l/h
Level 10 – 15 = +50 l/h
Surgery
Level 1 = +10 l/h
Level 2 – 3 = +6l/h
Level 4 = +6 l/h
Total = +142 l/h. As opposed to the current 108 l/h.
That’s approx 1000 l more in a 24hr period; which is not such a substantial amount to suddenly upset the balance of the game. But it would be enough to mean that your average zone 4 vampire can use the majority of his/her attacks to gain a worthwhile amount of experience points.
And obviously it would encourage people to build their resources rather than taking them, and allow them to stay longer in each zone, thus creating a longer lasting game - which means more money in your pockets - is that not what you want??
I haven't done any calculations for the other resource buildings - but as I say, I am not a game developer - its not the job I get paid to do; if it was, I might spend another hour or so doing it, just so I was happy that my game worked properly & satisfied my customers/players needs.
Ok – I think I’ve rambled enough; I’ll let some others join the debate, and welcome some warranted responses OR suggestions from yourselves.
p.s. to all players who are gonna leave posts on this thread - please make them relevant & constructive - this is NOT a thread created just to rant at the developers. Thanks.
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04-01-2008 23:08 |
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Death_Reborn
Junior Member
Registration Date: 03-30-2008
Posts: 17
Location: Kent
Race in game: Cursed One
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I think this is a well thought out and reasonable proposal. It doesn't upset the balance by introducing gallons of blood into the game but encourages development of the square and buildings therein.
Definitely one that should be considered and implemented, even if someone comes up with an alternative to combat the blood shortage.
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04-02-2008 00:01 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Nicely thought out and reasoned C, it's an idea that works directly on the problems in the game economy rather than 'Throwing money at it' and hoping it works out in the end.
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04-02-2008 00:09 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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May I only ask what do you need the blood for the entire day? Maybe you shout cut down the expenses on arcana drugin ambushes? I think that you don't have a expedition/siege every day and these are the things you have to spent blood on.
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04-02-2008 01:00 |
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Evil-Eoin
Triple Ace
Registration Date: 08-28-2007
Posts: 199
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: The Source
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And for people that have an expedition/siege every day???
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04-02-2008 01:18 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Szeszej
May I only ask what do you need the blood for the entire day? Maybe you shout cut down the expenses on arcana drugin ambushes? I think that you don't have a expedition/siege every day and these are the things you have to spent blood on. |
I think you'll find that quite a few of the people who have posted on this matter no longer use arcana in attacks or defence, and yet are still having these problems. Some clans (including at some points my own) do in fact have sieges every day, and when the points are available for it there are also multiple expeditions running through the course of the day too, so for some people what you say there is incorrect.
You say that people can attack to get their hit points back in a siege ...... what happens when they get hit within the final minutes of phase 2? They can't attack, they can't quest, no-one else can attack them, so please explain where they would be able to magically restore their chances from.
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04-02-2008 01:31 |
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Artoir.
Avenger
Registration Date: 02-24-2008
Posts: 1,111
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: V13
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| quote: |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Szeszej
May I only ask what do you need the blood for the entire day? Maybe you shout cut down the expenses on arcana drugin ambushes? I think that you don't have a expedition/siege every day and these are the things you have to spent blood on. |
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So are you suggesting if we're running low on the red stuff, we boycott sieges? What about square takeovers. I'm in DB and ourselves and COI are constantly trying to covet eachothers squares. Yes, admittedly about half of clan sieges are for PoH, but expeditions are a big part of the game and probably the most efficient way of gaining PoP.
It's getting to the stage where even farming can backfire.
If i attack a player much lower in the rankings and they manage to take, say 100 HP off me. If I get no blood from the ambush, I've lost ANOTHER 100 l.
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04-02-2008 09:40 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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I'm not telling you to boycott sieges, I'm telling you not to waste blood on things which are not so important.
Gendibal - you can make an agreement with a person outside of your clan to attack you right before the 2nd phase so you're 1. protected against any other attacks 2. with ful hp at the siege with no blood wasted
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04-02-2008 09:56 |
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Artoir.
Avenger
Registration Date: 02-24-2008
Posts: 1,111
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: V13
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http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=a2c1a122ea
8 litres of blood, jackpot! 
I haven't been using Arcana for months, I rarely do expos, and I've only been in 2 or 3 sieges this week.
And still I'm barely managing to keep a hold of what I have left, and it's the same across the whole game.
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04-02-2008 10:00 |
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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
Thread Starter 
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| quote: |
| May I only ask what do you need the blood for the entire day? Maybe you shout cut down the expenses on arcana drugin ambushes? I think that you don't have a expedition/siege every day and these are the things you have to spent blood on. |
Hi Szeszej, maybe you think I don't need blood for the entire day... but I would like to play a game where I do.
I want to go on sieges & expeditions every day - otherwise what is the point of playing!
Our clan has a siege & expo list which is never empty, there is always something going on; so why wouldn't I want to join in? I think somewhere amongst the many comments posted on the boards (possibly on the discussion about expeditions), you even said something like - "one of the aims of the game is to encourage team work".
I like partcipating in that aspect of the game - therefore I will try to join as many sieges & expos as I can. Recently, I have missed a few seiges because my blood supply has been so low; and in at least two recent sieges I have entered them without any blood & half my hit points.
I don't always use my arcana - in fact in expos it is mostly useless as I am an Absorber, so I never use it for them. I use it when I am attacking players that it has the best reason to used - I absorb their arcana; and as such it helps me win the ambush.
Equally, I like to have it as part of my defences. I don't have it set to full, and when I am really low on blood I turn it off.
However, I honestly don't see the point of having such a game instrument such as arcana in the game if I am not supposed to use it!
Plus, I might add, they are NOT the only things I use my blood on. I may not always "use" it when I am attacked - but if I lose, then I lose blood. And I can assure you that I am attacked quite a lot! I may not always lose, but it does happen.
Also, as Gendibal points out - I have to use it to upgrade some of my buildings - I accept that is not an every day requirement.
Maybe, I do not use my blood efficiently? But I do find it disturbing that I am not the only player in the game that has noticed and is trying to make this point.
But as I state in my original post - this is NOT just about blood. I only use that as an example because it is currently the issue that everyone is getting upset about - it is about ALL of the resource producing buildings - they are intrinsically linked with the whole economy of the game; and because if it is not considered / rectified soon, then the economy will start to suffer further down the rankings.
If the Devs don't want to make changes to the resources produced by the buildings, I can accept that - I am a rational person, just tell me that's not what they want to do, and I will try & think of something else for them to consider 
How about this for a suggestion - increase the amount of blood given as rewards for quests, and make the items found a little more worth while - on both single quests & caravans. That at least may help to solve some of the money & blood issues?
Or, maybe consider the requirement levels for the construction of the buildings - to quote Zeruel from another thread -
| quote: |
| Hospital gives a lot off blood (+100 l/h on the first lvl) but it is almost impossible to build. |
If a player with 449 points (lvl ?) ranked 3rd in the game, is struggling to build a zone 3 building - how does that inspire me to move up to the next zone? And according to my task list -
| quote: |
| Power!! Move to III zone and seat yourself in the Inner Circle. |
- I should be ready to do exactly that in order to progress - but again I ask at what cost?
Szeszej, personally, I am quite happy to plod along at my own pace in this game; I want to progress, but I'm not in a mad rush to do it. I'm a paid up premium user until June, and I fully intend to renew that premium with another six months. I told you - I love this game; it is an excellent distraction for me when I am bored while working.
BUT, I am not posting this discussion purely for my own needs.
Thanks for reading.
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04-02-2008 13:59 |
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diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.
Registration Date: 07-05-2007
Posts: 1,275
Location: Hell
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS
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Any ideas how to build these nowadays?:
OLD MARKET
UPGRADE TO LEVEL 4
Costs: 540 000 Lgo, 54 000 litres of blood, 216 000 people
TAXICAB
UPGRADE TO LEVEL 5
Costs: 812 500 Lgo, 75 000 litres of blood, 12 500 people
ARMOURY
-not sure, max reached already, listed just in case I'll move to Zone2-
When we had this problem with Lgo Junk was introduced, so i'm waiting for a CryoLab.
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04-02-2008 16:50 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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The sudden shortage in blood is caused by the possibility to upgrade Old market. The blood will shortly (or maybe a bit longer than shortly 
) be back to normal, I assure you.
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04-03-2008 00:49 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
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Posts: 1,863
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Clan: Overlords
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The thing I wanted to say is that the economics of the game are not in danger as the problems you're currently experiencing are only temporary. The appearance of Old Market caused a kind of Black Monday on the market of blood.
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
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04-03-2008 03:09 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Szeszej
The thing I wanted to say is that the economics of the game are not in danger as the problems you're currently experiencing are only temporary. The appearance of Old Market caused a kind of Black Monday on the market of blood.
If it's not broken, don't fix it. |
But at the moment it IS broken, and the 'Black Monday' analogy is only a theory seeing as the situation seems to have bottomed out and NOT got any better ..... therefore you are working on flawed assumptions to reach the answer that you have Sz ...... look at it from a players point of view for a change.
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04-03-2008 08:33 |
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Death_Reborn
Junior Member
Registration Date: 03-30-2008
Posts: 17
Location: Kent
Race in game: Cursed One
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I agree with G. You can't assume that everyone has now "maxed" out the upgrades on both the market and taxi as the idea is to build your square up, so the demand for blood will always be there, and, as Diablo pointed out, the amount of blood needed to go to just level 5 on taxi and 4 on market is now out of the reach of most players
Also, where will all this blood come from, assuming no one upgrades their market and taxi? I still can't see how we'll get back to the blood levels we had before and I don't want to stop sieging or doing expos
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04-03-2008 12:44 |
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diablo
The contract has expired - former moderator.
Registration Date: 07-05-2007
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Szeszej
The sudden shortage in blood is caused by the possibility to upgrade Old market. The blood will shortly (or maybe a bit longer than shortly
) be back to normal, I assure you. |
Assumption is the mother of all mess-ups.
Can you explain how will the blood situation fix itself please?
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04-03-2008 13:18 |
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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
Thread Starter
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| quote: |
The thing I wanted to say is that the economics of the game are not in danger as the problems you're currently experiencing are only temporary. The appearance of Old Market caused a kind of Black Monday on the market of blood.
If it's not broken, don't fix it. |
If I remember correctly, it was the appearence of Junk which started the money problems -
| quote: |
v. 1.0.0.5 12 January 2008
# Added possibility to buy and sell junk in the shop and to trade it with other players. |
After that BW Team's next little tinkering -
| quote: |
v. 1.0.0.7 23 January 2008
# Coversion rate of junk:Lgo is now 1:1.
# Added a new building `Old market`, its level increases the number of items you can auction at one time. |
- started the blood problems.
As you can see - it is a knock on effect as I stated in my original post. Just saying that the problems are "temporary" is not an effective answer. Yes, I agree with you, the blood MAY start to flow back through the rankings effectively, given time... But people want to know two things:-
1) How long? - if you can't answer this then surely it means that something is "broken", and so it does need fixing.
2) Will it return to the same level it was at before? - Because you are MISSING the point of our discussion; by introducing one area of upgrade (The Old Market) it upset the balance of the other blood related upgrades (Armoury, Taxi). People are not going to stop upgrading are they? Therefore, the blood will not return to its previous flow rate.
Can you understand what we are trying to say?
Yes, there are ways we can economise our blood spending; but that will not rectify the un-balance that the BW Team has created.
Am I making myself clear - do you want me to walk you through it again?
Sorry to appear a little annoyed, but I hate the saying "if it's not broken, don't fix it" - it is up there alongside "we fear change".
I welcome change - but with something as complex as a community it has to be done by looking at the full picture & not just single aspects, and if you do make changes that upset something that is in balance, then you should rectify them.
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04-03-2008 13:50 |
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theheraldofogc
Viking
Registration Date: 02-27-2008
Posts: 598
Location: UK
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: -END-
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I personally don't think I'll be doing much in the way of old market or taxi upgrading.
I have neither the blood nor the lgo (individual taxi fares aren't worth it).
Old Market level 1 is enough. I'm not exactly swimming in good items to auction.
Taxi level 2 is enough with reduced times, and even then I rarely use it.
But think of people who DO upgrade them? When holding on to a steady thousand is a daily chore (this is rough considering in goings and outgoings), and somebody finally hoards together 150,000 and throws it all away the economy is crippled since the subsistance level of 150 players just went kaput.
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04-03-2008 17:29 |
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Death_Reborn
Junior Member
Registration Date: 03-30-2008
Posts: 17
Location: Kent
Race in game: Cursed One
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If this situation isn't broken, perhaps it should be broken and then re-fixed as I'm pretty sure all the suppliers of the comments on this thread, and the others related to the blood shortage, are neither stupid nor liars but actually like the game and are just frustrated at the lack of action here.
I'm a premium paying player who enjoys this game but the recent lack of blood has started to spoil the attraction of the game and someone really does need to come up with a solution. There have been several ideas posted on possibilities to right this situation so perhaps pick one or two of them and give them a whirl!
What have you got to lose, except paying customers............and the customer is always right, even when they're wrong
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04-03-2008 17:39 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
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Clan: Overlords
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The market is not meant to be upgraded to high levels by "most" people. Some building have high stat requirements and some have high resources requirement (and in some cases both stats and resources
).
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04-03-2008 18:06 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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ok, thats one answer out of the x questions that have been posted here, where are the rest of them?
And you always act so surprised and hurt when people say they're being ignored ..... and you wonder why people won't just accept 'We're working on it' and 'it will sort itself out soon' on faith ..... maybe if you were more forthcoming with answers in the first instance there would be no trust issues there.
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04-03-2008 19:43 |
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Szeszej
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Registration Date: 02-21-2007
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There are 270 mln litres of blood on the whole realm, 11 mln over 10 points and 1 mln over 40 points. I think that is not a shortage.
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04-05-2008 22:02 |
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Szeszej
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Can't you attack 40pointers with 100 points?
Anyways I'll post it here when I know.
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04-05-2008 22:06 |
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Mortis
Emperor
Registration Date: 05-01-2007
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Hmm.. 1 mln over 40 points.. thats currently 219 players, so thats 4566l of blood per player.. thats in my opinion not too much.. and judging by the other numbers I think the total blood for players over 100 points wont be very high.
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04-05-2008 22:23 |
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NeoRAge
Junior Member
Registration Date: 02-23-2008
Posts: 10
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The main problem as already mentioned is sustainability. The money one has been figured out, so that upgrades to your Brothel and Pawnshop are just about worth it, I find that I can usually scrape together enough lgo with this factor and selling lots of otherwise useless items found during quests that I can save up enough for a piece or two of junk per day. Thats good because if you aren't spending any money on upgrading buildings it means you can get a steady (if slow at times) flow of wealth building up meaning that eventually you have enough money to build upgrades that don't require blood.
The main problem I see with blood supplies (having just entered the top 50) is that of sustainability, which becomes almost impossible, in that even if you turn off all of your arcana in defense and don't use it on expos (if you are an absorber) and do all the quests you can per day, you don't have enough to even keep the same amount of blood that you had at the start of the day. If you try to factor in upgrades then supply will not meet demand.
The only reason I can see for the supply of people not going the same way is that you simply don't need to use them up as much as blood.
Again already mentioned, but where is the progression for the slaughterhouse... at least there is some for the flow of money.
I know logic is never the best friend of games, but wouldn't it make sense that with more power you would become less likely to starve to death!?
I mean the people get used up in the building of upgraded buildings, but what happens to them then? if they die then how come they aren't recycled for blood by the surgeons? If their man hours are just used up then fair enough, but still that becomes a catch 22, you still need hundreds of thousands of people to upgrade a building so that you can single figures more per hour!?
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by NeoRAge: 04-06-2008 12:10.
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04-06-2008 12:08 |
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theheraldofogc
Viking
Registration Date: 02-27-2008
Posts: 598
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Clan: -END-
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The most powerful vampires never starve, unfortuanetly there's only enough room for 13 of them (zones 1 and 2) who have access to the graveyard which can sacrifice people for blood as you need it.
The rest of us have to struggle to get to that point. 10 spaces left, race ya!
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04-06-2008 15:08 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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Look at zeruel's posts in increasing production of the slaughterhouse for advice how to save blood
. Don't expect your gameplay to be easier as you advance, when you're higher in the ranks you get attack more often, gain less blood from qs, have more sieges/expos. It is hard to maintain a good amount of blood, but possible and the top players are those who have learned to do it I suppose.
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04-06-2008 16:54 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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And then look at the bits just below zeruels tips that Szeszej seems to have ignored as usual (selective vision), like the holes that have been picked in them by other players.
Also bear in mind that where most of you players are now experiencing severe blood shortages, Zeruel was rolling in blood at those stages, so his tips are aimed at, in effect, higher level players and a more stable economy, which makes them of limited usefulness now.
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04-06-2008 17:00 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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I'm sorry that I can't answer all your posts, but I'm only one man and there is a dozen of you and at least 3 topics. I'm trying to answer mainly the ones in game system so if you have any such thoughts please post them here.
When I was a player I used the same strategies described by zeruel and they're probably most effective. For all you need you have blood, let's face the facts, 2nd lvl old market is not a need, it's a luxury and luxuries have to have a high cost. You need blood badly only for expos and siegies. Make an agreement with other players to attack you, fill your blood right before 2nd phase by ambushing, if you feel that it is uncertain save 2 ambushes for the hp refilling. If your friends are slower than your enemies in clicking on ambush then I can only advise you to find faster friends. If you can't join sieges/expos with arcana then refill your hp with an ambush, do a few quests and join do siege with blood gained from qs. This is not a full list of strategies but I think you're the players so it's up to you to make the list even fuller.
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04-07-2008 00:25 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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'When I was a player .......'
Thats a bad example for the same reasons that Zeruel's were, because when you were a player the economy was more stable and hadn't been messed around with by various patches. And the 'work arounds' you suggest of having friends attack you shouldn't even have come out.
You're right that it's up to the players to work out strategies, but I'll ask you this ..... how can you work out strategies when the objectives are being moved constantly?
If you were asked to write an essay on cloning, and then 5 minutes before the hand in time the teacher gave you a critical part of the question that changed the whole nature of your assignment, would you not feel cheated and aggrieved? Yes, of course you would, because the goalposts had just been moved on you.
Do you think that because this is 'just a game' that the players feel any less aggrieved at having the goalposts moved on them? (Lgo economy, Blood economy, Mobs altered because of problems in Moria, etc) ..... Of course we feel just as aggrieved, because we've paid for this, and we're no longer getting what we paid for.
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04-07-2008 01:19 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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If the game is changed the strategies need to be adjusted, but the ones that are posted were, are and probably will be valid for a plenty of time.
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04-07-2008 01:23 |
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Mortis
Emperor
Registration Date: 05-01-2007
Posts: 1,159
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS exLead
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Szeszej, just a quick question: even if its luxury tell how I am supposed to save that amount of blood?
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04-07-2008 01:25 |
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Resource suggestions
