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lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

2 hand gun change proposal

DISCLAIMER: I have always been a sniper and I have compared what I think it is the strongest kind of player in BloodWars, 2 hand melee Black Knight. It is possible that other kind of players (ranged, 1h gun, 1h melee) are in a similar position, however I have not studied them and I do not talk about them here.

When you take a look at top level players you can get an idea of the potential each weapon, race & tattoo has. At this point I can tell you that a 2 hand gun player will be always weaker than a 2 hand melee player (similar lvl and equivalent gear). One of the most popular 2 hand melee weapons is this one:

quote:

Legendary Perfect Agile Katana of the Bloodsucker (+5)
Damage: 114 - 170
Effects: Chance to hit -24, attacks per round: 7, AGILITY +50, STRENGTH +38, TOUGHNESS +45, base HP +59 %, chance for critical hit +25 %, chance to hit increased by 25 %

The most popular weapon for 2 hand gun players is this one:

quote:

Legendary Perfect Flame thrower (+5)
Damage: 67 – 167
Effects: Chance to hit -24, attacks per round: 5, chance for critical hit +118 %, the weapon ignores 100 % of your opponent`s defence, AGILITY +9, PERCEPTION +12, overall weapon damage +20 %

There are obvious differences, and I consider them normal, as with 2h guns you have only 7 weapons to use while in 2h melee you can make hundreds of combinations. I would love to have an Legendary Perfect Agile Flame Thrower of the Bloodsucker (+5) though Smile

(who wouldn’t!). However, these are the weapons we have and we have to live with them, some differences are pretty obvious but I would like to point them out:

Flame Thrower: less damage per hit, less hits, less chance to hit, more crit chance, ignore 100% defence, poor boost of stat for chance to hit (perception) and no boost at all in damage (0 knowledge)

Agile Katana of Bloodsucker: more damage per hit, more hits, more HP, more chance to hit, no ignore defence, huge boost of stats for damage (strength) and chance to hit (agility)

Things are even worse if you take a closer look: crit chance for flame thrower is that huge because an armour of speed is needed, and it detracts %crit to gunners (only to gunners). So that crit% advantage is not real. That 100% ignore defence should compensate the lower weapon damage, but it doesn’t, a 2h melee always out-damages a 2h gunner: more hits and more damage per hit. Things are even worse since patch v. 1.4.26, when defence actually lowers damage even if you can ignore 100% of it.

To make things even worse, tattoo defence requirements for a 2h gunner are so low that a solar set is mandatory if you want to use top equipment (I cannot event use a plain P+5 Kilt without solar set!). And as you know, solar set means that all items defence = 0. Comparison result BEFORE tattoos:

2h gun player has less damage per hit, less chance to hit, less hits, less hp and gets way more damage (less defence) than his equivalent 2h melee player.

Here is where one would expect to have tattoo options that would compensate these differences, but the reality is:

2h melee tattoos:

quote:

Berserker
Desire for battle: chance for critical hit +5 %, additional 1 attacks with every weapon
Sacrifice: HP (base + buildings bonus) +5 %
Bloodlust: all weapons damage +16
Secrets of insanity: experience +16 %

quote:

Black Knight
Double strike: LUCK +6, additional 1 attacks with every weapon. HP +10 %
Power of Faith: chance for critical strike +30 %
Heart of Darkness: Chance to hit with all weapons +75
Apprentice of the Dark Side: experience +24 %

Most high lvl players go for Black Knight (obviously!): even more HP (on top of the extra hp they already have), extra crit, even more chance to hit, extra luck (remember, more luck means more chances to hit, more chances to crit, and less chances to be hit) and 24% extra experience.

2h gun tattoos:

quote:

Sniper
Instructor: additional 1 attacks with every weapon, experience +18 %
Tactician: chance for critical strike +25 %
Shooting Ace: hit of all weapons +75 Act III damage modifier from knowledge: 1
Squad leader: ignores 20 % of opponent's defence

quote:

Assassin
Deadly efficacy: all weapons damage +11, chance for critical strike +5 %
Deadly precision: ignores 20 % of opponent's defence
Anatomy expert: chance for critical strike +25%
Daredevil: experience +18 %

I do not know of any 2h gun player using Assassin, which means that everyone go for the Sniper option: knowledge damage modifier (good, but still any sniper will still do ½ damage than any 2h melee player), 25% less extra experience than Black Nights, ignore defence (useless as the weapon has already 100% ignore!), chance for critical hit (lower than Black Night).

Well, I think I made my point clear, but in short:

Ways to solve this?

1) Changing tattoos: create a new tattoo, modify one of the existing tattoos, or both. My suggestion is to create a new one:

quote:

New tattoo name

1.- Base HP +2% every 4 levels
2.- +2 dmg every 4 levels
3.- Luck +10, additional 2 attacks with every weapon
4.- Act III damage modifier from knowledge: 1, experience +24%

With this new tattoo, a sniper would still make less damage than a black night, would have less hp than a black night (unless it has level 138 or higher), would have less hits than a black night, less chances to hit than a Black Knight and less defence than a Black Night. But it would be closer, would have 4 more luck, and would get same experience.

2) Changing weapon bonuses. How about this?:

quote:

Legendary Perfect Flame thrower (+5)
Damage: 114 - 170
Effects: Chance to hit -24, attacks per round: 7, PERCEPTION +50, KNOWLEDGE +38, base HP +59 %, chance for critical hit +118 %, chance to hit increased by 25 %

With this weapon a sniper would be still inferior to a Black Night in certain aspects (less hp, less luck, less experience) but more equal than we are nowadays.

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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by lightboy: 07-25-2013 20:41.

07-25-2013 10:21

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

I think there should be something done since 1 handed melee can do same dmg as 2 handed gunners but with more attacks but I think an extra 0.5 crit mod would sort that out. coz really 2handed gunners are over looked all the time.

07-25-2013 15:47

Nosforano
Full Member

Registration Date: 07-17-2008
Posts: 67
Location: Underworld
Race in game: Cursed One
Clan: BoS

to be realistic, Snipers attack from distance and so have more time to deliver shots. This should allow more attacks, 100% hit rate (scopes etc).....takes time for your opponent to reach you for their own attacks (vs melee), takes time for opponent to reach accuracy range (hunters,one handed gunner)

Just to add to what Lightboys idea, additional items could be created for snipers weapons.
Things like telescopic sights, laser sithting, tripods, addtional magazine size to bolt onto your weapon of choice.

Damage could vary from changes in ammunition types each at additonal costs.

Not sure how this would transpire, but Sniper in real life is a specialist role and so much more can be made of it.

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07-25-2013 20:36

xpa
Full Member

Registration Date: 09-11-2008
Posts: 53
Race in game: Thoughtcatcher
Clan: BOS

I agree with Lightboy, something need to be done, cuz I'm a THOUGHTCATCHER, but even stealing HP from 2H meellee, It's really hard for me to win cuz they are so overpowered and some I just can win if I catch them questning like Icecream_an, he can do over twice of my damage each hit, so should be nice if the things can be balanced.

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07-25-2013 22:07

warlock619
Triple Ace

Registration Date: 05-19-2008
Posts: 197
Location: Ireland

Icecream:
RACE THOUGHTCATCHER
SEX Male
ADDRESS 3 / 9 / 4
CLAN The Dark Brotherhood
[D.B.]
LEVEL 110

White Lady:

RACE THOUGHTCATCHER
SEX Female
ADDRESS 3 / 7 / 1
CLAN HomeLess Lions
[HLL]
LEVEL 103

You're both TC, so you don't steal his HP, and he does have 7 levels on you, which is 7 levels more to have his potential best gear than you have.

I think the main one so far that's put logic in this thread so far is Nosforano, BUT here's something to think about with his points:

quote:

There are also Snipers on the enemy teams (normally ofc, maybe not in all cases) and as an example, could 1 sniper shoot say 10 or more vampires that are coming towards him at the same time? I don't think so. You could argue that as a vampire they should be quick enough with reloading etc to be able to do so, but then wouldn't the melee vampires with high agility be quick enough to get to you before you get a chance to reload? Shouldn't the hunters and 1h gunners with a mix of agility and perception have enough speed to get into range quicker and thus attack you quicker?

quote:

Just to add to what Lightboys idea, additional items could be created for snipers weapons.
Things like telescopic sights, laser sithting, tripods, addtional magazine size to bolt onto your weapon of choice.

Interesting concept, but tbh I think my last point would cover this a bit too. In a realistic world, even with laser sighting, tripods etc, the vampires are meant to be supernatural, so wouldn't they again be fast enough to get to you or even to dodge?

quote:

Damage could vary from changes in ammunition types each at additonal costs.

Not sure how this would transpire, but Sniper in real life is a specialist role and so much more can be made of it.

This part I actually think is a good idea, they could be bought like disposables that are exclusively for that tattoo, but then if sniper gets them then 1h gunners will want some and then hunters (which imo is a tattoo that is getting worse treatment than Sniper) etc etc.

EDIT: To lightboy, if we're gonna use logic here for a minute, I have a quick question. You're basing this on damage, number of attacks, HP etc. Here's a couple of questions:

As far as damage goes, logically, who do you expect to do more damage? The Sniper who guns from far away, or the Black Knight who's in the middle of the fight hitting everything around him/her?

As far as number of attacks goes, how many bullets do you think a Sniper can hold?

And HP, well a Black Knight, covered in heavy armour etc, compared to a Sniper who will normally be in light armour to move quickly for better angles, just think about who should have the most HP out of them two. Logically it makes sense.

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by warlock619: 07-25-2013 23:53.

07-25-2013 23:45

xpa
Full Member

Registration Date: 09-11-2008
Posts: 53
Race in game: Thoughtcatcher
Clan: BOS

I nominated icecream_an cuz he is a 2 H meellee weapon and he do over twice my damage, also I cant steal hp to an absorver....

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07-26-2013 00:47

warlock619
Triple Ace

Registration Date: 05-19-2008
Posts: 197
Location: Ireland

The main point I tried to make there was the level difference, how does Clemenza (just as an example) do in attacks against Creamy?

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07-26-2013 01:33

jeikun
Member

Registration Date: 04-05-2009
Posts: 36

If you were applying logic then the sniper would have a lot of time to shoot at the BK in heavy armour,

Though, I think it's not so much about the logic from actual weapons but making the game balanced and fun for everyone.

Something does need to change

I think the best way to look at it is in pro's and cons which I think puts BK ahead in terms of amount of pros compared to other classes...

But after speaking with Nnd and Vlade, maybe it's not the class itself that needs changing but some game mechanics?

For example personally I think the new defence patch has been poorly implemented as a "this will make it look like we are doing something constructive" patch

It makes certain classes who was already stronger in a PVP sense stronger and others weaker, without a way to really combat it - I know Nndungu is an anomaly but I don't think any one should be able to reduce a persons damage from 1k - 2k to 150 or so as I've seen on reports... Maybe before implementing it there should of been more smaller patches to prepare, making some classes embrace it and others counter the mechanic.

My thoughts for a while is there needs to be more class variety, at the moment it is all about damage but in a game with so many possibilities that they've narrowed it that way is a shame.

To compare it to other games you could have classes taking on roles etc like tankier low damage classes, hybrid classes and glass cannon classes making it so that expeditions would take more thought

Also with some classes having the ability to reduce what they are hit by a good 200 - 300 and then also being the high hp classes, shouldn't their damage be lower to compensate for that so that people have a reason to chose the other classes.

07-26-2013 01:39

Clemenza
Puki Mod

Registration Date: 03-09-2009
Posts: 164
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

@warlock619: Creemy and me are not attacking each other for a long time but I do have troubles to kill TC, I am pretty sure I can't kill him anymore. I can beat Nndungu thanks to my regen and depending on how lucky I am with dodges and if he is not in defence gear. But I am sure I can't beat Blodsugare.

I think sniper is considered OP 'cause of the 100% ignore defence, but that is related to some specific weapons that sniper can use, not related to the tattoo. Same happens with the leg heavy xbow of reaction, it has also ignore defence that can be 100% if you are lucky enough to get the appropiate enchant, and no one is saying they are OP 'cause of it.

In my opinion they can remove me the 100% ignore def from the leg flame thrower and give me same number of attacks, hp, chance to hit and damage from 2H melee weapons like leg agile katana of the bloodsucker. Also, if I may ask, the reduction in crits from speed only for gunners is stupid, why the penalty on us? If this would be removed then it won't be needed for the leg flame thrower to have the critical change at 100%+.

I am staying sniper 'cause I am a silly stubborn, but if someone asks me what path to follow when creating an account I would answer ABS BK, no doubts. To me, devs totally oriented the game to make 2h melee players the bests.

I totally agree with Lightboy01 proposal, and not because I like him, or he is in my clan or whatever, I agree with him 'cause what he says makes sense and something should be done. There's no balance!

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07-26-2013 08:30

alyat
Double Ace

Registration Date: 12-22-2010
Posts: 102
Race in game: Thoughtcatcher
Clan: DB

hmmm i think its ok if 2h mellee makes more dmg and has more hp like guns

what i never will understand is why in hell the 2h mellee have such a high initiative

if i see a mellee 200 yards away i begin to shoot and till he is near by he should be dead - that should be the mainadvantage of a gunner

but fact is mellee hits most time before gunner???

if i imagine this as story i see a wild viking running to a gunman who desperate try to get his pistols out of the holster while the viking rage near by and cut him into half^^

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by alyat: 07-27-2013 14:50.

07-27-2013 14:46

darc
Viking

Registration Date: 01-17-2008
Posts: 691
Race in game: Absorber

because agility is before perception when initiative is worked out. it's not just 2 handed melee look at Scorpio it gets extra to hit but an.ak doesn't. perception is hard to get unlike agility, but the only armour that gives perception messes with gunners.

being a gunner is.hard but they try makes us all use the.same.weapons.

07-27-2013 16:47

Grizly
Lord

Registration Date: 11-10-2009
Posts: 276
Location: FarAway - Eastern Europe
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BC-R/D.B.

quote:

Originally posted by darc
I think there should be something done since 1 handed melee can do same dmg as 2 handed gunners but with more attacks but I think an extra 0.5 crit mod would sort that out. coz really 2handed gunners are over looked all the time.

this idea can be very interesting ...

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07-27-2013 18:13

Pops
moderator...apparently

Registration Date: 10-22-2008
Posts: 652
Location: england
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS

I think the cit modifiers need looking at all round tbh, now we are starting to see huge differences in damage.

At this rate half the server will go BK o_O

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07-29-2013 17:24

dooz
Viking

Registration Date: 08-21-2007
Posts: 739
Location: Denmark
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Yea, poor overlooked snipers

http://r9.bloodwars.interia.pl/showmsg.p...&key=bd6e06d9ab

Cursed one sniper, equipped almost like clemenza but everything p5 and a hp enchant

/edit yea the two other vampires are black knights

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by dooz: 07-29-2013 20:21.

07-29-2013 20:17

Clemenza
Puki Mod

Registration Date: 03-09-2009
Posts: 164
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Cursed one sniper with 5248 hp and 110 lvl?

I am missing something there 'cause I am lvl 110 also and I have in expo 3423 hp, 1.8k hp less than him and upping my gear to P+5 is not increasing my hp.

His remaining hp at the end of the expo is 464 / 5248. So if I would be him I would be dead after 4 hits if I count it correctly.

Anubis atakuje Bap, Trupismród (*) wykonuje seri zwodów i unika trafienia.
Anubis atakuje Bap, Trupismród (*) zostaje zraniony za 1205 PKT {YCIA.
Anubis atakuje Bap, Trupismród (*) zostaje zraniony za 1167 PKT {YCIA.
Anubis atakuje Bap, Trupismród (*) zostaje zraniony za 1233 PKT {YCIA.

Not even at the end of first round, this expo you showed as example with gear same as me won't be possible for me to do it.

r9.bloodwars.interia.pl/showmsg.php?mid=137452698&key=4fa2d2c3e9

Maybe same gear as me but not same effect in expo. His enchants: 1 add attack, +35 know, +20 strength and 2k hp enchant

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07-30-2013 07:56

dooz
Viking

Registration Date: 08-21-2007
Posts: 739
Location: Denmark
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

or a level 105 tc sniper:

http://r13.bloodwars.interia.pl/showmsg....&key=36c9030fbb

before anti solo patch btw. Now no one is able to do that anymore

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07-30-2013 08:34

lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

Thread Starter Thread Started by lightboy

Top 2 BKs in our server:

quote:

Nndungu (Rank#1, level 112, HP in expos, including evo Absorption=5249)
Blodsugare (Rank#2, level 112, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=7687)

Top 2 Snipers in our server:

quote:

Clemenza (Rank#5, level 110, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=3423)
Lightboy01 (Rank#9, level 108, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=3432)

Please don't get me wrong. It is not a coincidence that Nndungu is Rank#1, he is a great player, smart, and anyone that has talked to him will realize he really knows how to play. He is a BK because it is the best option in his opinion. If he has damage record in 1 hit, it is because he has an awesome gear he's been working on for ages. Also a bit help from Searing Blood Smile

and for having the kind of weapon (2h melee) that can deal more damage, of course.

Some people think that the problem is that Black Knight tattoo is OP. I do not agree, if you take a look at other tattoos you can find even more interesting options. For me, the unbalance problem comes from the weapon effects. Remember:

quote:

Chance to hit -24, attacks per round: 7, AGILITY +50, STRENGTH +38, TOUGHNESS +45, base HP +59 %, chance for critical hit +25 %, chance to hit increased by 25 %

Or the one Nndungu is using:

quote:

Effects: Chance to hit -49, attacks per round: 4, STRENGTH +76, PERCEPTION +39, damage increased by 5 for every 4 levels, TOUGHNESS +45, base HP +59 %, chance for critical hit +25 %, chance to hit increased by 25 %

Not a single 2h gun has equivalent bonuses to these 2h melee weapons. I do not think any other kind of weapon has them either, although as I said in the first place I am not talking about them as I have been always a Sniper and I am not a specialist in the other weapons.

The biggest unbalance is the extra HP, which allows any 2h melee to survive more hits (they have more defence and get less damage AND they have these extra HP. Blodsugare has more HP than the top 2 Snipers together Shocked

. Remember that the main source of experience in this game comes from expos, and the less people you can go with to kill a mob, the more experience you get. So at least at our level (Top 50) this means that BKs can gain more experience than other kind of players.

The solution I like the most is the one I proposed of modifying weapons, giving the same kind of bonuses to top weapons. No need to nerf BKs, just give the rest the same chances.

/Edit: added legendary bonus to Nndungu weapon quote

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by lightboy: 07-30-2013 17:19.

07-30-2013 09:36

Pissedoffhyperion
Forum Ace

Registration Date: 11-03-2012
Posts: 83

quote:

Originally posted by lightboy
Top 2 BKs in our server:

quote:

Nndungu (Rank#1, level 112, HP in expos, including evo Absorption=5249)
Blodsugare (Rank#2, level 112, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=7687)

Top 2 Snipers in our server:

quote:

Clemenza (Rank#5, level 110, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=3423)
Lightboy01 (Rank#9, level 108, HP in expos, including evos Absorption and Carapace=3432)

quote:

Chance to hit -24, attacks per round: 7, AGILITY +50, STRENGTH +38, TOUGHNESS +45, base HP +59 %, chance for critical hit +25 %, chance to hit increased by 25 %

Or the one Nndungu is using:

quote:

so unbalance comes from weapon and not tattoo? then why are you not also complaining about berserker? they get the extra attack like bk's, just a HELL LOT LESS tattoo bonus and oh no ridiculous defence, and now dont go and try and say bullshit "oh berserkers get to use anything they like wah" no, even with tigers cap of adrenaline, it gets defence to null tatts on perfect+.....we HAVE to use suicide(/veng)(veng gives + ~10 damage with no agility) and that is pretty much the best suffix for 2h meele and the furtherest high up in order while still being good.

"of the bloodsucker" i think is the problem, it gives a hell of alot of toughness, massive hp boost, massive str boost, add these to the already(in my opinion) ridiculously good tattoo bonus for bk and thats it, they have mass hp/def/damage and ignore damage for having more defence! then consider the actual position of "bloodsucker" in the suffix quality order list, it is ridiculously low, a blind bat could make it with ease. I feel what would make it alot better if "of the bloodsucker" was to be around the same spot as "of the basilisk" is currently. This woul make it alot more difficult to obtain and more worthy of the current stats it holds

"The biggest unbalance is the extra HP, which allows any 2h melee to survive more hits" - no, you have your terms wrong, "any"? the berserker hp bonus of 5% is utterly pathetic, it does next to nothing and even more nothing in expo's(since no buildings....) so we take full damage and less hp.

erm another bit you mentioned just after this "we get less exp.....", sure can i have your 20% defence ignore? i'll give you my 16% exp bonus in exchange Smile

im going to stop here before i get flamed Smile

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Pissedoffhyperion: 07-31-2013 00:36.

07-31-2013 00:32

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quote:

I feel what would make it alot better if "of the bloodsucker" was to be around the same spot as "of the basilisk" is currently. This woul make it alot more difficult to obtain and more worthy of the current stats it holds

I completely agree with this. Though it if it wasn't possible to change the valour order of it I'd ask for a reduction in the stats and this is coming from a 2h melee user. I'm really close to making leg agile xxx of bloodsucker and it's only taken a month and less than 25ss to get this far. Where as others like berserkers could take forever to try and merge a leg agile katana of suicide.

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07-31-2013 00:50

Fischkopf
Member

Registration Date: 06-08-2012
Posts: 39

You do realise that all of the top players and most mid players that are bk already have a xx of bloodsucker weapon, so in changing the merge list you'd just not change their weapon at all, just make it more valuable, or you'd give them an xxx of whatever suffix takes its place which means all their work into getting to p+5 is nullified in one fell swoop

07-31-2013 07:55

Ace Rimmer
Full Member

Registration Date: 01-15-2013
Posts: 53
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: HLL

Hype you don't have to use Vengeance or Suicide, my ideal end game will be solar of xxx with agile of bs

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07-31-2013 12:25

PhuctiphinO
Junior Member

Registration Date: 04-19-2008
Posts: 24
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: The Source

* douses his self in petrol"

IMO 2h- guns has always been the quickest easiest character build there is to get the damage u get so easily especially thru expo's

Weapon costs are reasonably cheap compared to trying to merge a pre/suf weapon. your main problem is jewelry as far as I can see but then aint that a problem for us all ?

In the long run its more exspensive to build a melee character I thinks and this should be taken into account , but can see ppls points on bloodsucker weapons , but aint this always been the case since start , 1 weapon will be found to be better , ppls complain , Devs change item values thru pressure (shuri of reac? back in the day ect) players adapt and change .

Ever since I started playing many yrs back BK was the end game character by what was said records posted ect ect . nothings changed

07-31-2013 12:36

xpa
Full Member

Registration Date: 09-11-2008
Posts: 53
Race in game: Thoughtcatcher
Clan: BOS

I think the links can say/show everything;...

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=e75125d98a

he as just 30% chance, but,...

http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=...&key=260c0ee98c

he got 90% and both got twice of my damage .....

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07-31-2013 22:13

warlock619
Triple Ace

Registration Date: 05-19-2008
Posts: 197
Location: Ireland

Hyperion, don't make this about zerkers again please, nothings wrong with them you're just narrow minded.

I don't think changing the valour order is the way to go, I think a nerf to bloodsucker would be better, to bring it in line with the suffixes it is beside.

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08-01-2013 16:28

TigerDrive
Forum Ace

Registration Date: 05-09-2011
Posts: 83
Location: Earth
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: AS

thumbs up!

bits of hp boost in items if not on tattoo...
also some bonus damage type thing (like headshot in fps games) ??

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08-20-2013 11:57

Falek
Newbie

Registration Date: 03-31-2012
Posts: 7
Location: FAr and beyond
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: WOLF

I can't agree with you Warlock

quote:

fe sniper rifle. You can shoot even from few miles away and with nanites technology I think it should be even more. That's why perception is so needed. So normal melee have to run miles to get to the sniper and I'm sure first vampire will be dead after other will notice where is the sniper (Of course I meant sniper rifles, other such as Flame thrower with shortest range, then AK, FN-Fal have not so long range). In addition agility is not giving speed but coordination, so you have abilities to use your weapon even with one finger not to be as fast as the light Tongue

What about reloading, nowadays semi-auto sniper rifles are stronger sometimes even than single sniper rifles, so why they should be in future. So reloading is limited by your finger speed and recoil, that's why you need strength for snipers(heavier rifle lesser recoil)

Flamethrowers don't need reload until they've got ammunition, so melees can't even come to you without being burnt with temperature of thousands suns.

quote:

So maybe with that amount of agility you will want to dodge a bullet? Or it's too fast or why not sniper shouldn't dodge much slower melee weapon even with such low agility. Going forward, vampires are supernaturals, any melee weapon won't have enough power to even hurt a vampire, their weapons are slower and probably with first hit they would be destroyed on vampire skin leaving few scratches

quote:

As far as damage goes, logically, who do you expect to do more damage? The Sniper who guns from far away, or the Black Knight who's in the middle of the fight hitting everything around him/her?

Of course sniper. A sniper rifle is doing more dmg from a mile than a pistol from 2 meteres (it can pull out your arm and with no arms u can't hold weapons). Ok, Using katana u can't cut off arm too but it won't leave a hole size of a watermelon in your body.

quote:

As far as number of attacks goes, how many bullets do you think a Sniper can hold?

A hundred or more, it's enough to kill few vampires

quote:

And HP, well a Black Knight, covered in heavy armour etc, compared to a Sniper who will normally be in light armour to move quickly for better angles, just think about who should have the most HP out of them two. Logically it makes sense.

Heavy armour you said? So they are slower and how can they run to the sniper, dodge a bullet or anything else? British archers(I'm not sure if British) slaughtered heave armored knights cause they were much faster, knights in mid couldn't do any move cause of their armours and archers just stabed them. Less armoured faster you can be. In addition snipers can be hide, so firstly you have to find them. And because they don't need to fight very close or even shouldn't they can be armoured like a tanks.

tl;dr? I can admit sniper is easy at the beginning, but all in all he is much weaker than 2 hand melee Black Knight and other most builds

And that crit modifier? Shouldn't be sniper shots lethal after first hit?

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09-16-2013 22:54

TigerDrive
Forum Ace

Registration Date: 05-09-2011
Posts: 83
Location: Earth
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: AS

i agree with falak's statement in the end.
since nerfing bk's weapons will damage the population, buffing sniper tattoo will work ... since people picture snipers to be weak and without much defense, hp boost will be illogical according to those people. but hey! snipers' shots are really lethal. try taking a sniper bullet to your head and staying alive to hit the sniper back...
1 hit KOs will be too OP xD

so a crit modifier will be a blessing Tongue

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09-21-2013 12:15

lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

Thread Starter Thread Started by lightboy

Today, after being killed by a wendigo when I got a 3rd hit, I calculated (aprox.) what lvl would I need to survive 3 hits. I could do it when I reach around lvl 190. In the meantime, Nndungu can survive 5 hits being lvl 115. I will have less hp at lvl 190 that he has now at lvl 115. I get around 1.6 - 1.7k dmg from every regular wendigo hit, he gets around 1k.

I am the only sniper in this server with a P+5 solar set and a P+4 deadly set. I have the record in 2h gun dmg in this server, both per hit and per round, yet lower than 2h melee BK records.

Anyway, I already explained my point of view when I opened this thread 4 months ago, and later answering some of the comments posted here.

I think we (all people giving their points of view in this thread) deserve an answer.

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11-20-2013 22:25

dooz
Viking

Registration Date: 08-21-2007
Posts: 739
Location: Denmark
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: BoS

Yes, you have lower hit points. You don't get hit so much if you go in a balanced team. When i run with brundle, blod and vlade. Things sometime go wrong, when they do, brundle always dies first. He have beastly damage, but is himself more vulnerable. Next either me and blod usually get killed. And vlade more often than not get killed last. Why... yea he have huge perception so he gets targeted less frequently than other members on team.

Damage records is useless way to compare effective in expo. All melee records are from koth, my record is a result of being at 50% health(searing blood) and opponents with close to zero defense. In expo searing blood is a piece of shit, way to random. I'm pretty sure you mostly do more damage than me in expos.

I'm not saying tattoos are balanced, some tattoos work well in every team and some tattoos are best mixed with solid tanks.
If snipers have hp to survive more hits in expo I want damage ignore so I can properly lay down some hurt on Chronos

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11-21-2013 10:08

lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

Thread Starter Thread Started by lightboy

I have already explained myself in this thread, I do not want to repeat myself again, just read what I wrote 4 months ago if you wish.

I only want an answer from our dear devs.

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11-21-2013 15:58

Izuall
Member

Registration Date: 08-26-2012
Posts: 29
Location: Poland
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: DB

Don't forget about 1h gunners, they need to be strengthened as well! Big Grin

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This post has been edited 18905 time(s), it was last edited by Izuall: Today, 9:43.

11-21-2013 20:17

Pissedoffhyperion
Forum Ace

Registration Date: 11-03-2012
Posts: 83

should have it's own set of unique suffix's

telescopic sniper rifle? (could correlate the bonuses with real statistics? say sniper rifle gets 100% hits, flame throwers get additional burn damage(10% of damage caused in a round? each round)

but pfft stop complaining i would love 100% defence ignore, and the crit you will still have masses isnt it 25% from tattoo and 120 from wep? surely speed isnt going to hurt you that much...you could take 60% off without notice(max crit is 85 anyway)

and another thing, read a few people going on about how a sniper would be at a distance and should get multiple shots etc.

buttttt

what exactly is the range on a flamethrower ;0 by the time im in range, i would have sliced and diced you Smile

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Pissedoffhyperion: 11-24-2013 17:53.

11-24-2013 17:52

lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

Thread Starter Thread Started by lightboy

quote:

Originally posted by lightboy
Today, after being killed by a wendigo when I got a 3rd hit, I calculated (aprox.) what lvl would I need to survive 3 hits. I could do it when I reach around lvl 190. In the meantime, Nndungu can survive 5 hits being lvl 115. I will have less hp at lvl 190 that he has now at lvl 115. I get around 1.6 - 1.7k dmg from every regular wendigo hit, he gets around 1k.

I am the only sniper in this server with a P+5 solar set and a P+4 deadly set. I have the record in 2h gun dmg in this server, both per hit and per round, yet lower than 2h melee BK records.

Anyway, I already explained my point of view when I opened this thread 4 months ago, and later answering some of the comments posted here.

I think we (all people giving their points of view in this thread) deserve an answer.

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11-30-2013 09:24

Szeszej
Administrator

Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords

There are currently not changes planned.

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11-30-2013 16:21

lightboy
Double Ace

Registration Date: 05-17-2009
Posts: 107

Thread Starter Thread Started by lightboy

Thanks for the answer. Snipers, we have to decide what to do: change to OP BK or quit Confused

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11-30-2013 17:36

Izuall
Member

Registration Date: 08-26-2012
Posts: 29
Location: Poland
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: DB

Don't worry, they will change it sooner or later. Polish administration is fully aware of all flaws.

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This post has been edited 18905 time(s), it was last edited by Izuall: Today, 9:43.

11-30-2013 20:05

Pissedoffhyperion
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Registration Date: 11-03-2012
Posts: 83

quote:

Originally posted by lightboy
Thanks for the answer. Snipers, we have to decide what to do: change to OP BK or quit Confused

dramatic much

12-03-2013 17:56

Szeszej
Administrator

Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords

We are currently focusing on implementing runes and arenas, after that we will see Smile

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12-09-2013 20:17

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