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Assassin or monk?

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Kalessin
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Assassin or monk?

Clearly a monk is a defensive tattoo and assassin is concentrated on offensive capabilities. I wonder if anybody's done the maths and compared the extra damage of the monk with the extra critical chance and ignores defence of the assassin. Which do you think has the higher damage output? For comparison...

Assassin
Traits: chance for critical strike +25%
Traits: ignores 20 % of opponent's defence
Traits : all weapons damage +11, chance for critical strike +5 %
Traits : experience +18 % (aura*)

Monk
Traits: TOUGHNESS +15
Traits: dodge guns +25 %
Traits : character defence +30, damage increased by 2 for every 4 char (would be 42 damage for my level)
Traits : +15 to HIT PTS per hit, experience +20 % (aura*)

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04-23-2011 09:19

FlashAOD
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Registration Date: 01-06-2009
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See this also springs for gunman and gangster. Personally I love gangster.

But I am adamant with the gear any tattoo path can be done. With monk you have no defence because of suicide. But then you get regeneration and other bonus. But assassin with defence ignore is also a good combo. But I would say with the right gear they ate both powerful

04-23-2011 09:48

Kalessin
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Kalessin

I think the Monk's toughness and regeneration are just pitiful at a high lvl, but the dodge guns would be ace, and that 2 damage per 4 character levels is pretty powerful. Its just a shame there's no critical chance on there. You could counteract that a little with a tiger's set, but it would still be behind the assassin in critical hit terms. I'm just not sure how much more effective critical hit is against pure base weapons damage.

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04-23-2011 11:24

smierc
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well kal, it depends what stage of the game you're thinking in, end game is a very strange matter, assassins cant wear everything at P + 5 due to defense, so they use suicide and throw away that gift of being allowed some defence, so the monk doesn't care there. but suicide also nerfs you on agility. the dodge from monk is sexy, but yes like you said you can get that from tigers with the assassin. in my humble low pointed opinion monk is much more expensive weapons wise, monk doesn't do crit, it's brute force and ignorance, e.g. demonic XXX of hitting/emperor and one of suicide, since you have no crit, minus an elvish cape, it's hard work to get brute damage. it depends on if you want to see kalessin strikes critically XXX takes 400 damage, or kalessin hits XXX, XXX takes 400 damage. personally, i'd say assassin, yes monk, if you do happen to crit, you'll hit like a truck, but RNG given a chance to prevent you doing something, it will, so the def ignore is the thing you need, i mean take me and bav for example, i'll use the ursine set and as a zerker, i have low crit and no def ignore, but i crit a hydra for say 180 with 126+ strength, bav with def ignore does the same with 90. so imo assassin Smile

hope it helps Smile

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Originally posted by Evangelion
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04-23-2011 11:33

Undivisible
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Probably the only good high level 1h weapons are thunderfists, to use the better ones soon enough you have to be an absorber, so I think there wouldn't be any problems with criticals if you use power of blood instead of bloodfrenzy(which is a common thing for absorbers with assasins tatoo), since damage increased by 2 for every 4 char will probably make things even. The only problems with this build I see are:
- you would have to use either tigers set of armors, or light/agile TF of suicide very early, that can decrease agility a bit
- I think: chance for critical strike +30%, ignores 20 % of opponent's defence, all weapons damage +11, blood frenzy > damage increased by 2 for every 4 char, power of blood
in terms of damage ofc, unfortunately :/

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04-23-2011 15:08

Paranoia
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no maths needed.....

ANUBIS the level 92 BM monk....

Paranoia (88 absorber/assassin) Vs ANUBIS (92 Beastmaster/monk)

spy report of anubis

Anubis using the tigers set is heavily gimped by not being able to upgrade his gear any further (pants and hat) as he would then have to use suicide.

I am currently using suicide but with Elvish so i gain massive amounts of agility.

the dodge from monk is nice but tigers only provides Dodge mellee and monk only provides dodge bullets. as you see there the tigers set at G+5 (highest he can wear without losing tattoos unless suicide) Only allows him to dodge a very small fraction of my attacks.

at his level he is able to use the same items i can at my level even though he lacks the 5% easiness of an absorber.

In that setup anubis has 40% chance to crit.

In my setup i have 57% (can increase it to 85% using arcana/murderous weapons although both are not needed)

Im happy to show you my setup if someone is willing to spy me and ill add it here.

Assassin is much better against Mobs due to being able to utilize the 20% ignore defence to its maximum potential... monk needs the 2 dam per 4 to come close to the damage that an assassin can do.

In my opinion Monk is a nice tattoo but is not as viable as an assassin or the same race.... BM on the pther hand has got to be the choice for monk as you get to spread that nice damage bonus to your extra attacks so it will benefit a BM more than it would any other race.

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quote:

Originally posted by FlashAOD
Give up. Paranoia clearly destroyed your argument.

get used to it, I'm good at it

Smile

This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Paranoia: 04-23-2011 16:37.

04-23-2011 16:32

kralen
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coming from what you have just said para surely though monks tattoo is not all about crits though, look at his crits compared to yours when he does crit, highlight the fact that anubis doesnt use suicide and you have an extra 27 strength plus dmg bonus from your suicide effect.

EDIT: he does have extra 80 defence its noted

ANUBIS strikes critically with Good Murderous Thunderfist of Courage (+5), Paranoia takes 370 damage.

Paranoia strikes critically with Good Agile Thunderfist of Suicide (+4), ANUBIS takes 372 damage.

I think you might find that it could work both ways. If you find a set up with using suicide you can freely use elvish cape etc

yes the tigers set does gimp his ability to max his agility but if he switched it around and avoided using the tigers set for crit and focused on maxing his agility out im sure he would give you a better match especially with an 2 extra attacks from his arcana

What i would like to see is a report of assassin/monk vs high defence to equate to what the ignore defence vs dmg bonus would be

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by kralen: 04-23-2011 17:03.

04-23-2011 16:53

smierc
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quote:

Originally posted by kralen
What i would like to see is a report of assassin/monk vs high defence to equate to what the ignore defence vs dmg bonus would be

well it depends on the amount of defense, but with big defense figures, we're talking really big the assassin comes off better then the monk trying to use brute force and ignorance.

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Originally posted by Evangelion
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04-23-2011 18:26

Noumenon
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Ultimately If you prefer higher statics then you're looking at monk, if you're looking for overall strength then assassin. Until we see the godset equip for both we won't know, but as it stands assassin seems better.

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04-23-2011 19:06

kralen
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[/quote]well it depends on the amount of defense, but with big defense figures, we're talking really big the assassin comes off better then the monk trying to use brute force and ignorance.[/quote]

proof? its easy saying that they will but wheres the proof? para basically showed one problem with a monk tattoo with lower agility compared to assassin, what would happen if it was an equal fight with agility? i think it would be a closer fight than you think.

and talking about defences the 20% ignore defence would surely be the same as using suicide plus 40-50 dmg on top of that dmg for a lvl 80+

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04-23-2011 19:27

Paranoia
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no i merely showed up one aspect of the monk tattoo...

If i wanted to i could go monk right now with the same setup and still beat the snot out of anubis....

So could most other assassins.

the fact is most assassins use suicide....and those i know that dont have said if they want to progress more they will need to in the future.

Makavelli could go monk right now and he would have more damage than anubis 2 levels lower whilst having more crit.

Im not going to say much more because at the end of the day it will all boil down to the fact that im an absorber.

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quote:

Originally posted by FlashAOD
Give up. Paranoia clearly destroyed your argument.

get used to it, I'm good at it

Smile

04-23-2011 19:32

kralen
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yeah I agree mate, tigers is never gona beat elvish set up no matter what tattoo because it wields less agility, but we are not talking about agility we are talking about dmg

well para heres the question could you beat maka if he went monk tattoo? if he had the same agility as you and strength who would win? that would determine which tattoo wields the more dmg between the two

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04-23-2011 20:05

Ba_al
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kal u want know which is better is asking the wrong question

what i think u should be asking is which tatoo is easier to get items for Wink

and assasin is easier atm.

i was monk untill lvl 69 but had to change as my dmg output was very poor agaisnt big def mobs

there are no high lvl monks..except anubis right now

and im pretty sure he is highest lvl monk on all servers tbh.

later on and i do mean laaaater on monk will shine..as it will be able to use suicde + tat bonus and have high def

but atm the items on this server especially just arnt there for it

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04-23-2011 20:11

Paranoia
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quote:

Originally posted by kralen
yeah I agree mate, tigers is never gona beat elvish set up no matter what tattoo because it wields less agility, but we are not talking about agility we are talking about dmg

well para heres the question could you beat maka if he went monk tattoo? if he had the same agility as you and strength who would win? that would determine which tattoo wields the more dmg between the two

Thats is such a bad question to ask...

Same agility + same items + same square i can almost guarentee that an assassin would win... because no matter how much damage you do with your basic attacks it will NEVER stack up to twice as many crits....40% crit with a high base damage is all well and good but if im hitting for a lower base damage that is doubled 85% of the time I would win hands down due to sheer throughput....

EDIT

A spy of myself courtasy of Clem

Paranoia

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quote:

Originally posted by FlashAOD
Give up. Paranoia clearly destroyed your argument.

get used to it, I'm good at it

Smile

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Paranoia: 04-23-2011 20:45.

04-23-2011 20:39

Noumenon
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1h melee weapons crit for 2x so the assassin probably wins there due to it having twice as many crits in Paranoia's set up as the same set up monk. Partly by virtue of assassin ignoring the monk's defence ability.

Though monk would work out at 44 extra a hit, with which every 4th hit on average would crit. Without crits it's an extra 176 a round in the above set up. Which is going to be proportional to the damage gained from ignoring defence

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04-23-2011 21:07

npc
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Registration Date: 03-19-2010
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RE: Assassin or monk?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalessin
Clearly a monk is a defensive tattoo and assassin is concentrated on offensive capabilities. I wonder if anybody's done the maths and compared the extra damage of the monk with the extra critical chance and ignores defence of the assassin. Which do you think has the higher damage output?

Monk
Inspired Warrior
LEVEL 5: 22500 PoP, 2 soulstones
Traits : character defence +30, damage increased by 2 for every 4 char

my first thought Monk would be profesional tanker but "Inspired Warrior " not aura tattoo, seem no point add +30 defense bonus if you must use suicide/vengeance weapon (or jewelry/solar set) on defense to make tattoo work.

monk = nice base damage less critical*
assassin = "average" base damage more critical*

*if same race

if you have karateka mind, I think monk best option,
but if you lonewolf, assassin will be the best.

monk unable use assassin weapon, but assassin able use monk weapon ?

I think bloodwars best equipment gear prepare for expo mob than vs another player ?
players have dynamic stats and mob have "static" stats.

if anyone wanna compare tattoo, imagine both character have same weapon and race..

just thought from low level assassin..

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04-23-2011 22:14

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Undivisible
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RE: Assassin or monk?

quote:

Originally posted by npc
my first thought Monk would be profesional tanker but "Inspired Warrior " not aura tattoo, seem no point add +30 defense bonus if you must use suicide/vengeance weapon (or jewelry/solar set) on defense to make tattoo work.

Just like Gangsters with solar set of jewellery retain defence bonus monk with suicide/vengeance weapon also does Wink

EDIT: anyway I think ANUBIS could be a match for assasins like Paranoia if he had stuff like tigers shorts of the night, and perfect agile/murderous TFs of valor. He's probably working on that, so let's see what he can do if he plays with this tatoo a bit longer.

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IGN: Atomos

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Undivisible: 04-23-2011 23:13.

04-23-2011 22:48

Ba_al
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RE: Assassin or monk?

everyone says monk has no crit...which is tru tattoo wise
but zerker get only 5% more

and there are plenty of zerkers with good crit chance

@npc the 30 def bonus from tat still works even with suicde wep

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04-24-2011 00:17

Noumenon
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But zerker gets extra attacks which both have the crit chance of the zerker, and compensate for the overall damage as well.

That said I think we need to see uber equip first before we really start looking at it

Though assassins without legendary weapons cannot dodge fireballs from the phoenix like a monk can

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04-24-2011 00:47

Foxy
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Why is this debate Assassin vs Monk, what about these tats againts other tats, Monk be amazing vs gunners etc

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

04-24-2011 00:56

smierc
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quote:

Originally posted by Foxy
Why is this debate Assassin vs Monk, what about these tats againts other tats, Monk be amazing vs gunners etc

it's not -.- it's kal trying to pick one.

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quote:

Originally posted by Evangelion
It was inevitable since GT joined the discussion Big Grin

04-24-2011 02:22

Foxy
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Originally posted by smierc

quote:

Originally posted by Foxy
Why is this debate Assassin vs Monk, what about these tats againts other tats, Monk be amazing vs gunners etc

it's not -.- it's kal trying to pick one.[/quote]

Yes I know but surelly whichever he choices he won't be fighting just assassins or monks

You need to look at the tats against mobs, other tats etc

I tried to see which out of paranoia and anubis did best against my 1h guns to help you see what each tat did against a half decent gunman att

Paranoia
Anubis

Anubis lasted longer on less hp than Para in the fights but did only a little damage more than Para.

This is becuase of the crits as my twisted set gave me quite a few dodges so dmg per hit was the most needed thing here and as Para's crits did more than Anubis's non crits Para was doing more dmg.

I think though as people have said monk is a strong tatoo that atm no-one not even anubis has got the potential out of. It is a avoided tatoo like collector was until Cesarz made that tatoo his own and look at him now, arguably the best player on server.

So what I say is this

Either take assassin and try to play catch up with likes of Paranoia and maybe hit gold

Or do what Cez did and take a risk and it may make you one of deadliest 1hmelee on this server. The Cyborg mob will hate a amazing monk Wink

, dodge guns, high dmg and not need super agil Wink

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Foxy: 04-24-2011 03:08.

04-24-2011 03:08

npc
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quote:

Originally posted by Foxy
Why is this debate Assassin vs Monk, what about these tats againts other tats, Monk be amazing vs gunners etc

thread starter = customer = kal
anyone who reply customer = consultant

I think you wanna become customer and consultant in one packet.

@bal, I know, thats why Im asking this (the opposite).

quote:

monk unable use assassin weapon, but assassin able use monk weapon ?

so, kal, which tattoo do you choose ? if you choose zerker or collector, we all failure as a consultant lol

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04-24-2011 04:04

Kalessin
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Thread Starter Thread Started by Kalessin

@npc - LOL, I'm going sniper, you all fail as consultants Tongue

@foxy - that double attack the most objective measure I've seen, Anubis does do more damage and dodging but it doesn't seem to outweigh the critical hits of Paranoia. Still, there's something in it and I don't think anyone's really taken full advantage of the Monk tattoo yet.

Unfortunately I'm really lazy and crap at merging, so it won't be me. But somebody could make a very effective Monk someday I'm sure Smile

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Kalessin: 04-24-2011 08:35.

04-24-2011 08:34

Foxy
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quote:

Originally posted by npc

quote:

Originally posted by Foxy
Why is this debate Assassin vs Monk, what about these tats againts other tats, Monk be amazing vs gunners etc

thread starter = customer = kal
anyone who reply customer = consultant

I think you wanna become customer and consultant in one packet.

Nope because im not telling him to become another tat, I have only told him between assassin and monk, but I have added the bigger picture

As I said

quote:

Originally posted by Foxy
Yes I know but surelly whichever he choices he won't be fighting just assassins or monks

You need to look at the tats against mobs, other tats etc

So you've done this based soly on Assassin Vs Monk in fight

Not Monk vs gunman/BK/Anubis (mob)
or Assassin Vs Collector/Noble etc

As I said you can't choose a tat what its like fighting another that your thinking of using as yes maybe Monks weak point is Assassins? But it might be alot stronger than assassin against other tats etc and vice versa.

This is my opinion, hope its helped

And im out before this debate goes off topic for me Wink

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[20:01] <stimpuki> ur best gunner on srrver atm
[20:01] <Foxy9> really? not mortis or grind?
[20:02] <stimpuki> mortis is to old now and grind is hll

04-24-2011 09:53

pagru
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Is it worth nothing that the assassins can use a 2 h gun aswell as 2 1h melee, but monk is restricted to 2 1h melee

04-26-2011 00:12

Undivisible
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It's a very good thing for first expos, basically assasins are the only ones who can be succesful at using armor of speed + sniper rifle early on. Good setup that will put to shame noobish snipers should look like this:

good cap of precognition
cape of speed (not upgraded at all)
amulet of genius
good ring of wisdom
good ring of youth
short shorts of shepherd

it's possible to use it even against red dragons or Golems if you manage to use good sniper rifle with it.

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IGN: Atomos

04-26-2011 00:30

Cthulhu
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I think some people have missed the point of Kal's thread, so a little back ground for you all to keep you on topic:
1) Kal is currently a level 85 Cultist with Assassin tattoo.

2) Her set-up has been split between the 2h gun & 2 x 1h melee weapons throughout her whole game, and she is now finding that split hard to keep going, i.e. cost of upgrades, merging, buying stuff, etc.

3) She thought she might like to try a different tattoo; she likes playing melee, and has always recognised the benefits that a high level monk could have.

Sooooo, the important bit is, she wondered if any of you crazy maths / number crunching geeks had done some playing around with the differences between Monk & Assassin.

That is why the thread has mainly been about Assassin / Monk; however, as Foxy pointed out, she is not interested in just fighting those two tattoos - she wants to know the differences between the tattoos against mobs, other tattoos, etc.

Paranoia was just comparing the two tattoos against each other - which was also helpful, as she got to see Annubis' set-up & see the flaws in it, etc.

Kal, sorry I can't really bring anything to the discussion that would help much. I think you might be able to make a good monk set-up, but as you are not an Absorber, you will need to wait a few more levels in order to equip that P+1 tigers set (mask, cape, skirt), which I think you would definitely need to make the tattoo work really effectively.

I know you are "lazy" when it comes to merging; but I reckon between now & the 10 levels you need to gain, you could merge yourself all the stuff you need. Tongue

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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Cthulhu: 04-26-2011 10:37.

04-26-2011 10:37

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