PapacyOFEvil
Member
Registration Date: 05-07-2007
Posts: 26
Location: Birmingham United Kingdom
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: COTU
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The intreoduction of poinnts of honour is a good thing and has meant Clans need to talk more but Clan Leaders and Deputies need to be able to remove members from a seige to balance the Battles for a chancce of ponts of honour...an option to add players in would be useful too.
Better still would be a third Seige Type - Points of Honour Seige
This would apply handicaps to the teams to provide more balance or limit all seige defenders and attackers to basic weapons/armour so that the weaker ans stronger clans have a chance for points of honour as a clan.
There are players out there who single handly could take on a clan, win with more than twice the HP's and walk away with no Honour Points.
We need a mechanism to make this work and take advantage of you Honour Points System and the Expedition Screens
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05-07-2007 11:48 |
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Szeszej
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 1,863
Location: Poland
Clan: Overlords
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If there was an option to add/remove players to/from sieges the game would become too simple. Leaders have to encourage players to join sieges, have maximum HP, buy disposable items etc., without that the game would be just clicking and clicking without human element.
Siege for resources is meant to be also siege for honour points because resources are easy to gain and no one really bothers whether he has 1k or 10k Lgo. Honour points are meant to be gained only when two more or less equal clans battle. If there are no clans equal to yours just make an arrangement with stronger clan, but for example only half of them will be allowed to join.
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05-07-2007 19:19 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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I would go a little further than that and suggest a permanent clan handicap system, so that no clan can exceed a certain amount of points or levels at any time ..... this would prevent the 'glory hunter' or 'powergamer' clans from taking over the game as is evidently the case at the moment.
And as an answer to those who will claim that the 'only having 3 players per clan in S3' rule is handicap enough, I will say this ..... that rule is not preventing the top clans from pooling their resources together to widen the gap between themselves and the lower clans to a great extent.
Setting a maximum point limit on clans of an average of all players within the top 500*max # of members in clan (rising as the average point value of players rises) would promote more of a competitive game.
The system as it is now may have been proven on the Polish server where everyone was learning together, but now there is a skills and experience difference. The only thing that the new players on this server are learning is how to get battered around by the top clans (WOG, KoD, PHX, EoD or whatever they're called at the time) which at the moment consist almost exclusively of top 50 players.
I've seen this sort of thing happen in too many online games before, and I've seen players vote with their feet and leave the game because of it. Level the clan playing field.
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05-21-2007 22:19 |
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Hyperborean
Double Ace
Registration Date: 05-02-2007
Posts: 145
Race in game: Beastmaster
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I do not think it has proven it-self proper. Not at all, especially with all the opportunities-became-illegalities. In fact, in Necropolis the division between Vamps A and Vamps B-class was very vivid. And, sadly, the expeditions make this impossible to avoid. The expeditions are fine, don't get me wrong. They allow vamps to concentrate on sth else than just clan wars. But the professional dragonslayers are now moving to invincibility at warp speed. The now-weaker bloodsuckers shall not be able to equal them ever. Have you been thinking on this, or you don't consider this a problem, Game Masters?
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05-21-2007 23:02 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Thanks Hyperborean, any more thoughts on this matter?
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05-22-2007 14:35 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Amazing how some clans gain members from others so quickly when a siege is going on ....... I wonder how long it'll be before they drift back to their original clans this time?
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05-23-2007 22:58 |
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DrGreenthumb
Double Ace
Registration Date: 02-28-2007
Posts: 146
Location: Pszczyna, PL
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: [..l..]
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Good organisation 
but u can use it sieging clan which members went to other clan 
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05-23-2007 23:03 |
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DrGreenthumb
Double Ace
Registration Date: 02-28-2007
Posts: 146
Location: Pszczyna, PL
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: [..l..]
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In every game there are better and weaker players,
someone win, somone lose
It's normal in this type of games
good players building best clans
weak players trying to catch up top
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05-24-2007 05:48 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by DrGreenthumb
In every game there are better and weaker players,
someone win, somone lose
It's normal in this type of games
good players building best clans
weak players trying to catch up top |
It occurs to me that the 'weaker' players you refer to are those that have to stand on their own 2 feet instead of bein artificially held in position by lame tactics which, although falling within the rules of the game, do not fall within the spirit of it.
Look at the amount of inactive accounts and tell me that its normal for people to drift away from a game, then look at the sheer amount of them and some of the names that crop up in there ..... then count accounts that have been passed from one person to another.
You'll find that the number of players that have walked is high even for this type of game, and then ask yourself why. The most likely reason is because they've realised that they won't get a look in at the top, not because they're worse players than you, but because they work within the spirit of the game .... sticking to one clan and not begging members off others when they 'want to win'.
The number of players that realise this is likely to rise, and although some will stay and try to p*** against the wind, others will leave, and you'll be left with an ever decreasing player base, eventually having the 'same old names' in the top 50 - 100. The gap will continue increasing between the top positions and the lowers because of the unchecked powergaming, not quaility of players.
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05-24-2007 08:24 |
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DrGreenthumb
Double Ace
Registration Date: 02-28-2007
Posts: 146
Location: Pszczyna, PL
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: [..l..]
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hmm.. powergaming?
[..l..] vs [.DB]
488 pts vs 564...
they can win without problem, but they need 100% attendance.. they will never win with this organisation.
btw. everyone who want can get top50 without bigger problems, but have to wish...
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05-24-2007 14:04 |
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Azz420
Lord
Registration Date: 04-11-2007
Posts: 384
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: .DB.
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People who jump clans should be exempt from joining any seiges for 24 hours, im fed up from people seiging me for my square and its for my square not for honour points, there is no honour in these type of seiges, this is the 3rd time this week my square has been under seige by lazy gamers who use power to get what they want and leave everyone else lagging far behind.
They already cried for the auctions to be opened early so they could tool themselves up, now they have the power they will just abuse it and do what they like with no concequences, making life hard for anyone who would try to oppose them, sure we could try to join them but then they would have to pick on even easier targets imbalencing the game even further until any clan that could be a threat is extinguished.
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05-24-2007 14:55 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Ah well, I give up on this line of discussion ...... hardly anyone seems to be concerned about this including the admins and devs ...... until people start walking in greater numbers than so far, and it will happen, as they get up to the part of the game where the top clans start holding them down .... erm, sorry, did I say clans, I meant clan (no matter how many different names the PHX, EoD, Dragon Slayer clan goes under at any given time it is one single powergaming entity).
Sure, there'll always be new suckers to come in to try their luck, but even this will start drying up as people realise who it is the admins and devs pander to every time.
Thank you to all on both sides of the discussion who have proferred their input, I would have liked to have seen some Admin comments in here, but this is obviously something that is either beneath their lofty positions, or something they would like to see swept under the carpet (I personally believe its the latter).
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05-24-2007 18:37 |
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Hyperborean
Double Ace
Registration Date: 05-02-2007
Posts: 145
Race in game: Beastmaster
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And we need it now.
I don't say that one clan cannot have twelve vamps in the third zone (though I believe it's too much, and would have gone for six), but handicapping like the one proposed by Gendibal is necessary. Some kind of membership limiting is what the Underworld is craving desperately.
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10-10-2007 19:43 |
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Zauborin
Triple Ace
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 194
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: EoD
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u are right gendi, game is now unbalancing and overpower by to clan EoD and DB ppl choose between this 2 clan if they want play active 3 player in 3 zone was some limit cus they are ppl that want to be in 3 zone so they leave one of this clan and join to another or make new one, now 80% of top50 is in one of this to clan, patch was for polish realit where is a lots of active player and in top50 are 10 or more clan, and lots of them are on simillar lvl
one of option can be make of limit "top player in clan"
2 player from top10
3 player from top20
3 player from top30
etc
but what heppend when some one start play more active and move from top 30 to top 10? and clan will have 3 player in top 10 ? he sould be automatically removed? that would be stupid so we need something other option
i was thinking about some point blockade ofr example clan with 1k point atack clan which have 500 points so automaticaly on siege is make blockade which make that from first clan can cet to fight player with amount of point 500 to give some chance to weekst clan to defend, but even here is problem maybe they have more player in siege but what can they do? they will have 50? 70? agi or perc, ppl from better clan will have 150, 170?
we must find some good options for this to make game more balance but not in in weapon, square etc, we just must look on relations between player and clan
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10-10-2007 20:24 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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But an alliance with top 5 clans would be very boring. That would make weaker clans grow safely but the stronger ones would simply be bored of this game.
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10-10-2007 22:01 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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I told it many times and I will repeat it.
This game is about war before patch every weakling could build very good territory in 3rd zone and he knew that there is no one that could take it.
After patch game became more interesting. At least some kind of war can occur.
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10-10-2007 22:07 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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More interesting? You call annihilating weaker clans just to get the best square interesting?
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10-10-2007 22:23 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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the only wars that can realistically occur are between the big clans or between the small clans.
It was shown earlier, regardless of the reasons for the siege and regardless of the comments on both sides, exactly what can and will happen when a player in one of the top clans wants something from someone else.
http://r1.bloodwars.net/showmsg.php?mid=1881284&key=6637096d26
The final points tally on the siege was 2100 attack against a total limit of 421 points for a 100% showing from the lower clan (total ratio of 5:1, but that doesn't take into account the massive difference in player size/power), and this sort of thing will become commonplace as zone 3 squares are built up by non 'Top Clan' players.
It may have made the game more interesting for you up there with the other big clan to play with, but for the rest of the players in the lower clans, things are going to stale and sour quite quickly. More people will leave the game because they'll see the imbalance, they'll get put back to zone 4 or 5 *again* by someone in a big clan (not necessarily a big player, just a player from a big clan) and just won't bother building up again.
As I have said before, this has happened in quite a few games, and the admins and devs waited too long to correct it ..... and how it has turned out in most cases is that a game which had the potential to grow like wildfire just fizzles out and settles to a playerbase of less than 10% capacity (one of the games had such a growth spurt that they went out and bought some heavy duty server upgrades, only to have this crop up and almost cripple the game for nearly 2 years, making the upgrades wasted money)
The gaps between the players from EoD/DB and the lower clans are growing out of all proportion to the game, and the only way to balance that out is to introduce clan limits, whether certain people like it or not.
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This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 10-11-2007 10:04.
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10-10-2007 22:36 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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Yes. What is wrong in it?
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10-10-2007 22:36 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Lis, I'm going to make a quote here, from another thread a while ago ..... I'll take out all the irrelevant parts and post the relevancies.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Elisabeth
When player think that something is not right with game system then administration should look at this. If player have right then they should think of way to change it. When they don't know how to do it then they need to listen to players that play this game.
If you don't have any idea to change it then don't write here. Szeszej told here that he will listen to suggestion that we make. |
We are making those suggestions, if you have no suggestions to make, then please follow your own words
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10-10-2007 22:46 |
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Evil-Eoin
Triple Ace
Registration Date: 08-28-2007
Posts: 199
Location: Ireland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: The Source
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I think that's a smashing idea.
It may not solve all problems discussed here, but it is perfectly in line with the spirit of ambushes, preventing the rich from robbing the poor of their hard earned resources. Why has it not been thought of before?
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10-10-2007 23:43 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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Also players with good territory could hide in weaker clan.
I don't think that any change need to be done.
Game became unbalanced when L12 and Hyperborean declared war and will stay this way until DB will surrender.
You can thank them for making 2 strong clan in whole Underworld.
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10-11-2007 07:59 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Whether the actions of 2 people made this possible or not is not at question here, the fact is that the GAME MECHANICS allow it, and while that fact remains, the game will remain unbalanced.
Take a long hard look at that example siege elisabeth, situations like that should never be permitted to happen in a game ..... if a change isn't made (as you suggest) then EoD and DB are going to contain almost the only players in the game, that will be fun for you won't it?
What we are suggesting here is modifications to the game mechanics in as simple a way as possible, if you have nothing more to add than attributing blame and trying to hold onto power then please leave it to the people who are trying to help on both sides of the discussion.
L12, this problem is one of the things that is affecting the level of active players, until the symptoms are addressed, the illness can not be cured
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 10-11-2007 08:45.
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10-11-2007 08:39 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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| quote: |
| But i have no ideas yet, but some way to encorage only a few powerful players to go into a clan with many 'younger' ones would be good. |
It can't be good because you will again declare war on this clan.
Gendibal there can't be any patch that will force others to leave clan and join other.
The only thing that you can do is invite more active players if you can't do it then Vote for BW. I cast Vote every day and every week.
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10-11-2007 09:17 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Elisabeth
It can't be good because you will again declare war on this clan.
Gendibal there can't be any patch that will force others to leave clan and join other.
The only thing that you can do is invite more active players if you can't do it then Vote for BW. I cast Vote every day and every week. |
I stopped voting for BW when the patch was introduced, for the simple reason that the game is now unbalanced and I will not recommend a game that any player who joins is unlikely to continue with because of a huge problem. As I said in one of the previous posts, this problem is directly affecting activity levels within the game, and that will not change until it is addressed.
And exactly why can't there be a limiting patch that forces clans to cut back on their players, you're already supporting one that allows 2 clans to take over 80% of the top 50 players and basically do what they want in the game with no regard to the effects (which incidentally is far more damaging to the game in general).
Let me give you an inkling of what will happen if this goes unchecked (and this has been proven over and over again in other games of the same type and calibre) ....... and I'll put it in a point by point format as all other attempts to get this across have been completely ignored.
1: Small number of players grab power and are allowed to run roughshod over the rest of the playerbase (commonly called powergaming). <This part is in progress already>
2: Admins don't catch and resolve the situation in time. <the clock is ticking on this one>
3: Smaller players start leaving, then the mid sized players.
4: Word gets around that the game is NOT beginner/new starter friendly, and trust me ..... put downs have a lot more speed behind them than praise
5: The supply of new starters reduces to a trickle
6: The game goes down to the point where its the same playerbase carrying on that were the root of the problem in the first place
7: With no new players, the regulars start drifting off
8: Voila - Rename of the game from Blood Wars to Ghost Town
If this is what you want lis then by all means carry on, but if you want a continuing game, then start thinking about the situation in the game and actually looking at it from a new starters point of view (new starter in this case is lvl 1-30). Look at the amount of inactive accounts .....a population of 7561 looks real good for a small game, but how many of those are active? 20%? 10%? 5%?
And how far will it be allowed to fall before it's addressed, and these ideas are at least acknowledged by the admin/admins that have read these posts (yes, I know for a fact theres at least one of you read them)? 10%? 5%? 1%?
Basically you're living in a power trip lis, you are the only one who has actively posted disagreement so far but you have raised no valid points as yet ..... and I quite honestly believe thats because there are very few, if any, to raise.
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This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 10-11-2007 10:11.
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10-11-2007 09:38 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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Funny. I can't siege new players or even ambush.
There is already system that allows new players to be protected so why add other?
Gendibal do you call yourself new player? You had good territory that belong to someone else so you lost it fairly.
I don't understand your whining.
Before patch it was boring because there was no war going on in 3rd zone. Now there is fight going on for good territory.
High level players became boring because of this unrealistic limit in 3rd zone now it is more interesting.
If some of new players will like BW then he will play it. Changes should be made to make game more interesting and hold already active user like myself.
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10-11-2007 10:12 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Elisabeth
Funny. I can't siege new players or even ambush.
There is already system that allows new players to be protected so why add other? |
I never once said you could .... what I said was that the gaps between players and clans were becoming wider because of the patch, and as players realise that theres no chance of them getting anywhere they will leave (proven many times before.)
| quote: |
Originally posted by Elisabeth
Gendibal do you call yourself new player? You had good territory that belong to someone else so you lost it fairly.
I don't understand your whining.
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How do you manage to come to that conclusion, I stated 'new player' in this case as meaning players at levels 1 to 30 (pre clan armoury levels for clarification), as I am above those levels, I am not by those terms a new player.
I see you have a strange view of the word 'fairly', and that example is one of the main proofs on this point, one clan amassing 2100 points (including top 10 players) against a clan with a total points score of 421. Thats like putting Mike Tyson in the ring against Kate Moss, something that would and should never be permitted to happen.
And as I have stated earlier on in this thread (please read the posts lis) This isn't about single sieges, squares or ownership, this is about an unbalanced system that is going to fail unless certain points are addressed (again as stated earlier like the situation where 2 clans each have power exceeding that of EVERY OTHER CLAN COMBINED, and if you do not see something wrong with this, then you need to take a long look at your perspectives).
Talking of perspectives, I feel I must ask this. Why is it when you make a suggestion it is merely that, a suggestion, yet when anyone else makes a suggestion that you don't agree with, it's whining?
| quote: |
Originally posted by Elisabeth
Before patch it was boring because there was no war going on in 3rd zone. Now there is fight going on for good territory.
High level players became boring because of this unrealistic limit in 3rd zone now it is more interesting.
If some of new players will like BW then he will play it. Changes should be made to make game more interesting and hold already active user like myself. |
Now that is simply selfish, changes to the game should be made to attract more players and therefore a more balanced game is a necessity. With what you have stated there, the admins should listen to the established top players with no regard to anyone else at all ..... and thats the kind of thinking that has destroyed both better and worse games than BW before.
Your claim that the 3 zone limit was unrealistic is far overshadowed by what will happen ingame if the fallout from changing it is not looked at ... and quickly.
There are a lot of new players who have liked BW, but your simplistic view is, in your own words, unrealistic ..... because a lot of them have NOT continued playing because of the balance problems in the game. Now if you wish to add to this discussion, it might be an idea if you read all the posts (properly) and stopped trying to make this out to be a personal matter (If it were I would have taken it to the appropriate topic group in Mishmash).
Just to remind you, the thread is about clan limits to balance the game after the patch, not personal attacks on other players.
Again in your own words lis 'STOP SPAMMING IN THIS THREAD'
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This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 10-11-2007 11:30.
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10-11-2007 10:31 |
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Elisabeth
Lord
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 440
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I'm not spamming. I'm giving my thought you don't need to reply on them.
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10-11-2007 11:13 |
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SushiMaker
Administrator
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 89
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Personaly I don't see the problem, there are 144 squares in the 3rd zone. Thus min 12 clans can hold the whole zone.
Alwayse the strongest players held the best squares.
What the patch did, was to enable the stronger players to unite under one banner.
Regards,
SM
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10-11-2007 12:42 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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Exactly my point ..... 2 clans each hold more power than the rest of the clans combined (at current points, including ALL inactive clans EoD - 2684, DB - 2611, combined clans position 3+ - 2600, and you don't see a balance problem here?). You've basically put ultimate power in the hands of the top players and screwed over everyone else. With the only limiter (ineffectual as it was) removed from the top clans there is NO WAY for anyone else to progress ..... it is highly unlikely that any other clan will posess a zone 3 square for a great amount of time, so again you've introduced a system that benefits only those few players or clans at the top.
The problem that you can't see is that no-one can do anything about the clan dominance situation from below ...... 60-70 players now control the game, and can do what the hell they feel like to those in the clans below them without ANY risk whatsoever.
You have listened to a minority of players, and made judgement based on that without considering the knock on effects further down the tables. Does it not say something to you that THE player who would be most severely hit by limiters placed against the top players OR clans agrees that the situation is out of hand and something must be done?
To put it in real terms, if this situation continues, the only active players you will have left (not counting a spattering of lower levels that stay in the game or come and go) are the top 2 clans and certain others from the top 100-150, hence the game won't grow, which wouldn't be a good thing for any of us who enjoy playing it.
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This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by Gendibal: 10-11-2007 16:03.
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10-11-2007 14:03 |
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Prince_Alden
Junior Member
Registration Date: 09-30-2007
Posts: 11
Location: Worthing/West Sussex/ UK
Race in game: Absorber
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How about...
when seiging. the attacker decides on a maximum points limit of players to be included on the seige.
so if the attacker declares 200 points. both the attacker and the defender can have a maximum of 200 points worth of vampires a side. if you make this point limit equal to say the vampires level + their charisma rating maybe? or something like that. it ensures that the big clans can still utilize their steam roller seiges. BUUUUT the smaller clans can still seige the larger clans and have a strong chance of winning.
You will of course get the more powerful clans wetting their knickers over the change but thats to be expected. you cant keep everyone happy.
it would serve however, to keep the game aggressive and dynamic and ensure that the lower levels still have a fair chance at progressing.
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SANITY!!!!.... is for the weak
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10-12-2007 14:03 |
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Gendibal
Viking
Registration Date: 03-17-2007
Posts: 561
Location: Lancashire, UK
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ok, the balance qustion has again been raised, and at the risk of necroposting (again) I'll bring the possible solution of clan handicapping into the limelight anew.
various solutions have been forwarded and shot down since the last time this was brought to the fore, but a whole new generation of players have come into it since then ........ ideas from you guys would be excellent
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Back for a while.
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11-27-2007 19:20 |
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draculaisemo
Lord
Registration Date: 10-02-2007
Posts: 431
Location: England
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoD
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warning for necroposting 
jokin
i think clan handicappin would take a lot of the competition out of it
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Bye.
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11-27-2007 19:52 |
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