 Ban on a Polish Server |
Kalessin
Full Member
Registration Date: 04-29-2008
Posts: 68
Location: UK
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: Source
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http://forum.bloodwars.interia.pl/thread.php?threadid=527117
So I logged into R2 Moria on the Polish server today to find I'd been banned. I can't really decipher why, the mod involved isn't answering my questions. From what I can tell, an item I sold was bought for far more than its worth. Actually it's just as likely that Google is translating my questions as 'March flop gurgle snort Thursday'.
Anyway. Can somebody please explain:
1) I presume this is an item I sold on the auction, as I haven't bought any light shorts of rogue lately. The mod must have banned my account simply on the basis that it was a high bid, because there IS no other evidence - I've never heard of the other character before, there have been no messages between us, and even if there had I wouldn't understand then as I don't speak Polish. Is there any way I can prove my innocence?
2) How can I possibly use the auctions in future without the danger of being banned again for somebody else putting a stupidly high bid on something I'm selling?
3) Can I start another character on the same server without multi-accounting?
4) What happens to my premium on that character, can I have it transferred to a new character on the basis of innocence until proven guilty? It seems an easy money-making scheme to ban premium characters for something where they cannot possibly prove their innocence, forcing them to pay again.
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12-27-2008 12:25 |
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joshk
Double Ace
Registration Date: 02-15-2008
Posts: 114
Race in game: Thoughtcatcher
Clan: DB
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the money bit i agree with, but no you cnat have your premium transfered. but if you have been banned permonatly then yes you can make another user on the same server without being banned for multi-accounting....but make sure your original user is banned permonatly before making a new one
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12-27-2008 13:07 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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You got that ban for extreme pushing. A mergestone for Light Shorts of Rogue is far too much. You should have reported your auction with the link you got in the message that you sold the item. You didn't do that so KJ banned you.
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PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
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12-27-2008 13:26 |
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Kalessin
Full Member
Registration Date: 04-29-2008
Posts: 68
Location: UK
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: Source
Thread Starter 
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I don't remember getting a merge for some shorts. I don't even know when I sold them, as he didn't answer my question.
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12-27-2008 13:30 |
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Kalessin
Full Member
Registration Date: 04-29-2008
Posts: 68
Location: UK
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: Source
Thread Starter
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I didn't realise, I probably thought it was a heartstone. That's what I get for playing a game in a language I don't understand!
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12-27-2008 13:40 |
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Pops
moderator...apparently
Registration Date: 10-22-2008
Posts: 652
Location: england
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS
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the value and position of the stones is still the same i think, although i may be wrong. also, how are they to know that you dont speak polish? you were playing on a polish server, so they probably assumed that you do.
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No, you didn't imagine it, I DID just go there 
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12-27-2008 14:19 |
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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
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You're missing the point - Kalessin is saying that the moderators are not answering her questions on the Polish server. Which is why she was asking the same questions here.
I remember having this discussion when they introduced this stupid patch with regards to pushing on auctions.
Kalessin is being punished because two people bid on her auction, one them bid over the "estimated" value of the item, & the other person reported it. But, according to the rules, Kalessin should have reported the auction herself, when she received the stones.
As said before, what a stupid rule. Why would anyone report it themselves!!!
If you are innocent of pushing, then you would think, "Wow, that was good, I got a great result from that auction."
If you are guilty & have orchestrated the push, then you would have to be stupid to report yourself & risk getting banned anyway.
Who is to say that a pair of shorts are over priced on an AUCTION? If they cannot prove that she was messaging the people who were bidding on this auction, then how can they say that she had anything to do with the over bidding??
In stead of such a ridiculous way of governing an auction, why don't they set maximum bids to auctions as well as minimum - that way at least the seller could protect themselves?
I agree with her - how can any of us feel safe with auctions when people have the possibility of maliciously getting others banned for high bidding?
For example; if I know someone is selling a hat of adrenalin - average price of an MS - then I go in & bid 2SS. The other bidder reports that auction, but the person who is selling does not. Who are they gonna ban?
Me, for bidding?
The other bidder, for reporting?
The person for selling, but not reporting it?
All players, just because they can't be arsed to investigate it?
What ever way you look at it, it is a crazy way of trying to legislate. Without actually proving that I bid on that item with the intent of either, "extreme" pushing an auction, or because I want to get someone banned, how can they sensibly ban anyone???
Anyway, she is p***ed at being banned; but her main questions now, are whether she can get her premium back or transferred, and whether she can start another character.
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ENCHANTMENT
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12-27-2008 14:56 |
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Pops
moderator...apparently
Registration Date: 10-22-2008
Posts: 652
Location: england
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS
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my apologies. i misunderstood.
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No, you didn't imagine it, I DID just go there
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12-27-2008 15:14 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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The point of reporting your own auctions is that you won't get banned, only the stones will be removed without any further punishment.
__________________
All complaints on all the Moderators should be sent to me via
PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
"Getting old is mandatory... being mature is optional"
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12-27-2008 15:38 |
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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
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Yeah, I understand the point, but my point is that is a mad rule to enforce. Are you trying to tell me that you report all of your auctions, just in case someone else thinks it was pushed & reports it??
That is complete silliness!
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ENCHANTMENT
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12-27-2008 17:07 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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Not every reported auction is pushing. The reporting button is for honest players who don't know the buyer. Before that both of them were banned even if the seller was innocent. Now if the seller is honest and knows that he got too many stones for the auction he may report it. You don't have to report all your auctions because that may eventually result in a ban for spamming the operator with reports... Just report the ones you're sure you got too many stones.
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All complaints on all the Moderators should be sent to me via
PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
"Getting old is mandatory... being mature is optional"
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12-27-2008 17:30 |
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NouveauNosferatu
Lord
Registration Date: 04-28-2008
Posts: 281
Location: Norn Iron
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: Source
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What about circumstances where a player is leaving the game and randomly using up their stones on the auctions?
You get a good price for your item, you report it, the item gets returned to you and you have to re-auction it? The person leaving the game doesn't care if they get banned.
Recently i was bidding on an item (I'm not going to say what), and it eventually went for 2 and a half times what it normally would sell for.
Now i didn't win the item. So if i was vindictive about it, I could report it for a 'push' (which i didn't, and wont). But it wasn't a push, just a good competitive auction.
Where is the line drawn? And of course the answer will be we can't know where the line between a competitive, fair auction and a 'push' lies, because if it became common knowledge, everyone(in theory) could 'push' items to just under the limit.
EDIT: Grammatical errors.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by NouveauNosferatu: 12-27-2008 17:39.
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12-27-2008 17:36 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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Then someone will bid 5 soulstones on a cruel club saying that he urgently needs it...
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All complaints on all the Moderators should be sent to me via
PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
"Getting old is mandatory... being mature is optional"
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12-27-2008 18:35 |
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Kalessin
Full Member
Registration Date: 04-29-2008
Posts: 68
Location: UK
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: Source
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I've started a new character and I can see the point being made. Please don't take this as a dig to anybody in particular, but in summing up:
I was banned for someone's unaccountable decision on what an item is worth. That is largely subjective, I don't know who bought the shorts, but perhaps he needed them and didn't have any other stones - or didn't want to spend them. It was only a 40 point character, a few months work and a fiver in premium after all, but the people who judge what an item is worth are completely unaccountable in taking it. Any number of times I've sniped auctions using MS or SS because I'd been waiting for an item to come up or ages and I really, really wanted it - it seems I would be considered wrong for desiring to play the game. You can be banned for being keen to advance in the game, or having a poor sense of judgement. Or simply for NOT attaching a very high value to a fake digital stone in a fake digital game which doesn't even exist in the real world.
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12-27-2008 21:45 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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A little bit of translation:
| quote: |
aruna18 napisal(a)
sory ale nie wiedizlaem o tym ile one sa warte a jak napisaBem zalezalo mi a tylko kp mi zostal Prossze o mozliwosc dalszej gry |
I'm sorry but I didn't know how much they're worth. and as I already said I needed them and I was left only with a mergestone. I'm asking for the ability to still play the game
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Killing_Joke napisal(a)
nie zostal ci tylko kp ... |
You weren't left with only a mergestone...
As you can see, KJ already checked whether the player could buy the shorts for a smaller amount of stones or not.
And it's natural for a human to save as much money as possible. You won't go to a shop and buy bread for 30 pounds just because you're hungry...
__________________
All complaints on all the Moderators should be sent to me via
PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
"Getting old is mandatory... being mature is optional"
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12-27-2008 23:36 |
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Raxis
Set Abominae
Registration Date: 12-12-2007
Posts: 1,168
Race in game: Beastmaster
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| quote: |
The point of reporting your own auctions is that you won't get banned, only the stones will be removed without any further punishment.
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but then what is the point of an auction. The Necro server type won't have these reports becasue people agree on a price, so why should this Moria server type?
Do you know what the stupidity of all this is... we are being banned for "pushing" but if I wanted a field vest of master and had 6SS then I would bid four with the possibility of more to guarantee the win... yet that would be a push... if you want something you overprice yourself.... also if you are a generous person then you don't worry bout the prices, you pay what you want to give.
And then look at this compared to Ebay:
Air Guitar sold for over £3000.... so they got a box
A one pound coin was sold for one million pounds before (look it up... it's a record)
Now if we did that we'd be pushing
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12-28-2008 02:19 |
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Cthulhu
Viking
Registration Date: 11-29-2007
Posts: 726
Location: UK
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: HL
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Evangelion
A little bit of translation:
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aruna18 napisal(a)
sory ale nie wiedizlaem o tym ile one sa warte a jak napisaBem zalezalo mi a tylko kp mi zostal Prossze o mozliwosc dalszej gry |
I'm sorry but I didn't know how much they're worth. and as I already said I needed them and I was left only with a mergestone. I'm asking for the ability to still play the game
| quote: |
Killing_Joke napisal(a)
nie zostal ci tylko kp ... |
You weren't left with only a mergestone...
As you can see, KJ already checked whether the player could buy the shorts for a smaller amount of stones or not.
And it's natural for a human to save as much money as possible. You won't go to a shop and buy bread for 30 pounds just because you're hungry... |
But Evan, how is the seller to know that the person bidding is pushing!!! That's my point. It is a ridiculous rule. Why has Kalessin been banned because this guy has pushed the price? How is she meant to know whether he has more stones in his store or not. Effectively the BWT are saying that we should report every auction where we think the price we get is too high! That is bloody stupid. Then we will constantly losing out on the auctions... what is the point of an auction when you can't bid what you want for something????
As I said previously, perhaps there should be a maximum bid option as well as a minimum.
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12-28-2008 11:44 |
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Evangelion
The warning machine
Registration Date: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1,131
Location: Poland
Race in game: Beastmaster
Clan: BoS
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I'll give you an advice:
Think about yourself more than about the bidder. You shouldn't care about things like "Maybe the buyer desperately needed the item and didn't have any other stones...". The point is that you should think whether you got too many stones for an item or not.
And about reporting auctions. I've played in total on 3 servers like Underworld (the Moria type), auctioned over 1000 items and I had only one case where I thought I got too many stones for an item and reported the auction. But I haven't had my stones removed back then so apparently that price was ok.
Maximum bid: read my example in the Game System section.
__________________
All complaints on all the Moderators should be sent to me via
PM rules = who is who and what may be reported to whom
"Getting old is mandatory... being mature is optional"
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12-28-2008 13:11 |
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Shasu
Full Member
Registration Date: 05-15-2008
Posts: 67
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I agree with Chtullu on this. While I don't think a maximum bid should be put into the game I still think the rule that the seller should report their own auction if he/she thinks they got too many stones is pretty much stupid.
But banning the seller over it is plainly unfair and could be interpreted as way to get easy cash from premium account users.
The seller is not guilty unless their guilt is proven. The admins can check the PMs of the seller to see whether there has been correspondence between seller and buyer beforehands or if the IPs are overlapping etc. If there is no proof of that kind within the game then the admins are just assuming it is a set up pushing which is groundless.
In the first place deleting the item and the stones paid would have been enough to resolve this situation. Any other action is unjustified.
Banning a paying customers on groundless assumptions and thus not delivering the service they have paid for is not quite legal either, just as a side remark.
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12-28-2008 16:22 |
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Raxis
Set Abominae
Registration Date: 12-12-2007
Posts: 1,168
Race in game: Beastmaster
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Shasu
I agree with Chtullu on this. While I don't think a maximum bid should be put into the game I still think the rule that the seller should report their own auction if he/she thinks they got too many stones is pretty much stupid.
But banning the seller over it is plainly unfair and could be interpreted as way to get easy cash from premium account users.
The seller is not guilty unless their guilt is proven. The admins can check the PMs of the seller to see whether there has been correspondence between seller and buyer beforehands or if the IPs are overlapping etc. If there is no proof of that kind within the game then the admins are just assuming it is a set up pushing which is groundless.
In the first place deleting the item and the stones paid would have been enough to resolve this situation. Any other action is unjustified.
Banning a paying customers on groundless assumptions and thus not delivering the service they have paid for is not quite legal either, just as a side remark. |
Ouch Shashu. You are right however about the legality of the situation. True if a misconduct is proven then punishment, regardless of money, should be administered. BUT in this case there is no blame on Kalessin's part. Maybe it has something to do with a way of thinking, the Devs (And Evan) believe that as humans we will try and be miserly, it's in our nature... How is that for stereotyping. I'm sorry but the rule that we shall conserve as much as possible is not true to all... go to a real life auction to see this... hell almighty, I have seen someone bid four grand on a china teapot... which was valued at two hundred, simply becasue he wanted it.
An auction is an auction because you bid whatever you want, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
__________________
Create the infinite and expand the question.
Count to number seven.
Your day of rest creates infection,
Your imperfection.
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12-29-2008 00:51 |
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Kalessin
Full Member
Registration Date: 04-29-2008
Posts: 68
Location: UK
Race in game: Cultist
Clan: Source
Thread Starter
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Shasu
Banning a paying customers on groundless assumptions and thus not delivering the service they have paid for is not quite legal either, just as a side remark. |
I quite agree. If there were PMs exchanged between us, or IP clashes which hadn't been reported, there are grounds to cancel the premium I paid for, as that's clearly actively breaking the rules. If they had contacted me asking why I hadn't reported it, and warning that I could get banned unless the stones were removed, I would have agreed it was overpriced and that the MS should be removed, but there is no warning.
Besides, I get the feeling pushing happens quite a lot - remember Nottslad? He was banned for multiaccounting, but I reported him because once he joined the Source he sent a clan message asking people to sign into his account and do his quests, and in return he would give them a SS for a crappy item. I believe when questioned he said he'd done it before. That's clearly active pushing, and not at all the same as FAILING to report an auction, yet the punishment is the same.
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01-03-2009 13:26 |
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Mortis
Emperor
Registration Date: 05-01-2007
Posts: 1,159
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Race in game: Absorber
Clan: BoS exLead
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Well as I have said in another thread, I still think this whole "report yourself" link is plain stupidity.
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01-03-2009 13:38 |
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